Kappalite 3012HO vs Deltalite 2512II?

[iualum]

The 3012HO has about 2 dB worth more excursion than the 2512 (6.2 mm vs 4.9 mm), so that's how much more bottom end potential it has, given suitable EQ.

The 2512 is really a sweet woofer for bass guitar, and I haven't used it mainly because my specialty is crossover design, and if we're going to use a crossover anyway, we're throwing away the nice top end that the 2512 inherently has. Imo it's a strong candidate for a crossoverless DIY build.

Is there any general, "rule-of-thumb," relatively uncomplicated D) relationship/formula relating excursion & dB? Maybe it needs to incorporate another one, two, or possibly three factors?

If it's overly involved, then no worries. Just wanted to ask .

 

[CrUiSeR]

anyone lnow if the 2512 would be a good
matchup in the tl806? if close would a increase
or decrease in volume be better?
thanks

 

[will33]

Is there any general, "rule-of-thumb," relatively uncomplicated D) relationship/formula relating excursion & dB? Maybe it needs to incorporate another one, two, or possibly three factors?

If it's overly involved, then no worries. Just wanted to ask .

I think it's something like as power doubles, excursion goes up by a factor of 4 but don't quote me on that without verifying, I may ne confusing it with something else ( hey...it's early ).

I quite like my Deltalite 12's. They don't sound as peaky as they look on paper, nice topend. I'd consider them to sit in between "vintage" and "modern" in tone. Twist a couple knobs on the amp one way and you get your warm and fat, twist them the other way and you get your deep and crisp. Quite nice driver for electric bass and pretty friendly towards varying enclosure sizes and tunings. I have mine in 2.27 cu.ft. tuned ~44hz or so, want to shrink them down to an even 2 cu.ft. tuned ~41hz or so. They sound good either way, I just don't need the extra extension the bigger box brings for my taste in tone, so, why not have a little smaller package to carry around.

A pair of them will rival any 410 in terms of output and "oomph". I think of my pair as sort of a "mini 215". That's what it feels like playing them. I think they sound more "musical" than the K-lite HO, even if their max performance on paper comes in a little under the HO. Still plenty loud and can take a pretty good pounding from medium size amps. Cheaper too.

 

[R Baer]

I tried the Deltalite's early on for the ML112. I wasn't particularly fond of the stock driver, but the guys at Eminence have a lot of experience making custom OEM Deltalites for the bass cab companies and I will say that a couple of the samples they built for us were very impressive indeed.

 

[dhsierra1]

I'd consider them to sit in between "vintage" and "modern" in tone. Twist a couple knobs on the amp one way and you get your warm and fat, twist them the other way and you get your deep and crisp.

Quite nice driver for electric bass and pretty friendly towards varying enclosure sizes and tunings. I have mine in 2.27 cu.ft. tuned ~44hz or so, want to shrink them down to an even 2 cu.ft. tuned ~41hz or so.

A pair of them will rival any 410 in terms of output and "oomph". I think of my pair as sort of a "mini 215". That's what it feels like playing them.

exactly my experience.

Built two 1-12 rig using them at 2.2 cu ft (each cab) with the 44 Hz tuning for a local pro bassist. With a P bass and flats using a GB Shuttle 9.2 he gets a lot of vintage thump. Put an active bass through it and it sounds, well, modern, but very smooth. And with low end and volume to spare for just about any setting. If you need more then you should be going FOH.

 

[MuthaFunk]

Mesa spec'd the Deltalite 12's in their uber deep sounding Scout combos and Radiator 12 extension cabs. I have the combo and extension and am amazed at the pounding they take when I have to hit them.

I also have a Xsonics 212CF loaded with the 3012HO's and the design of the cab is polar opposite to the Scout and Radiator series. They do seem to take even more power over the Deltalites and truely can give out the deep low end with proper EQ'ing. I always use an FDeck HPF set at 30Hz so perhaps that's why I'm able to coax some deep end out of those drivers with EQ'ing.

IMO, I think the Deltalites sound better in stock form for bass and have a broader capability sound wise (vintage / modern) as long as they're used within their limits. Which granted, are pretty high. If loud performance in a small package is the design goal the 3012HO's can be designed to sound great for bass along with some EQ'ing and go beyond what we as bass players have typically seen out of our bass cabs performance in the past.

IME

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Is there any general, "rule-of-thumb," relatively uncomplicated D) relationship/formula relating excursion & dB? Maybe it needs to incorporate another one, two, or possibly three factors?

If it's overly involved, then no worries. Just wanted to ask .

Here's the quick-and-dirty that I use:

Doubling of displacement = 6 dB increase in SPL (for instance, go from one woofer to two woofers, and max SPL goes up by 6 dB)

Square root of two increase in displacement (1.414) = 3 dB increase in SPL

Cube root of two increase in displacement (1.260) = 2 dB increase in SPL

So in this case, we have 6.2mm/4.9mm = 1.265 = 2 dB

 

[iualum]

Here's the quick-and-dirty that I use:

Doubling of displacement = 6 dB increase in SPL (for instance, go from one woofer to two woofers, and max SPL goes up by 6 dB)

Square root of two increase in displacement (1.414) = 3 dB increase in SPL

Cube root of two increase in displacement (1.260) = 2 dB increase in SPL

So in this case, we have 6.2mm/4.9mm = 1.265 = 2 dB

Got it, Duke. Many, many thanks .

 

[PawleeP]

The 3012HO has about 2 dB worth more excursion than the 2512 (6.2 mm vs 4.9 mm), so that's how much more bottom end potential it has, given suitable EQ.

The 2512 is really a sweet woofer for bass guitar, and I haven't used it mainly because my specialty is crossover design, and if we're going to use a crossover anyway, we're throwing away the nice top end that the 2512 inherently has. Imo it's a strong candidate for a crossoverless DIY build.

Is it true that the neos usually inherently have an irritating/ usually unwanted midrange spike? does it apply to the bass lites/deltalites and /or kappalites? thanx duke

 

[jnewmark]

I've been using a 212/horn cab cab loaded with 3012HO's for about 5 years now, and am very satisfied with it, as far as low end is concerned. I don't know if I've ever tried the Delta lites, but I have tried the usual suspects of commercially available 212's, and much prefer the HO's.In fact, it's been a real difference maker for me, as I was just about ready to give up on 212 cabs. Now, I play a 4 string, and don't need reggae type low end, but I'm always amazed when posters state the lack of low end with the HO's. I usually find myself backing off the bass knob; it's certainly to the left of center most of the time. All that aside, the HO's are the best sounding 12 I've ever played out of, tonally speaking, too. Just my two cents.

 

[will33]

Is it true that the neos usually inherently have an irritating/ usually unwanted midrange spike? does it apply to the bass lites/deltalites and /or kappalites? thanx duke

They certainly don't have to if they don't design them to be, but it is kind of a "thing" with some Eminence drivers, not just the neos.

I sometimes pondered putting more porous dustcaps on mine to see how much of a difference it'd make. Should tame the peak a little. Really though, it never bothered me enough to mess with. I like to think the response rise helps keep definition in a room full of bodies as they soak up the higher sounds. Don't have any scientific measurements on that, but I pretty much proved it to myself by.......


....pulling the Deltalites out of my rig to use in some other PA stuff and putting my old Carvin PS12-B's back in my bass rig. Those are a discontinued sort of "quasi-LF" version of their old Eminence sourced OEM PS-12's. Nice warm tone with full bottom and nice middle mids but pretty much nothing going on higher up. So I took a closedback 6" out of an old Celestion PA cab and grafted it on top with a cap to where you can hear it coming in about where the Carvins run out of range. The 6 plays a couple db under the pair of 12's but adds an octave on top they don't have. A little janky but it works good. That means no more response rise at the topend of my speaker system. Outdoors this sounds nice and full but still defined without having to boost bass. Indoors in that same room full of bodies, I was boosting uppermids more to sit right out in the room. With the Deltalites that uppermid boost wasn't needed.


Different strokes and all that. If you don't like them, you don't like them, and that's just fine.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Is it true that the neos usually inherently have an irritating/ usually unwanted midrange spike? does it apply to the bass lites/deltalites and /or kappalites?

The magnet material isn't a primary factor in the voicing of a loudspeaker, but I think it can have some effect. I am under the impression that neodymium can have some self-shorting properties that would extend the top end a bit, but midrange peaks are going to be primarily cone/dustcap/surround artifacts.

Eminence tends to design speakers that have either a midrange peak or rising trend on top that gives them a characteristic "voice". In particular, Eminence does a very good job of voicing their bass guitar speakers to sound really good with electric bass. And if a designer wants a flatter response, he can filter out the peaks in the crossover (which is what I do).

Now if flat is the goal, one of the flattest prosound woofers I know of is the Faital 12FH520, which uses a neodymium magnet, and you can see its curve here:

http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/12FH520/8/12FH520_datasheet_8.pdf

 

[PawleeP]

The magnet material isn't a primary factor in the voicing of a loudspeaker, but I think it can have some effect. I am under the impression that neodymium can have some self-shorting properties that would extend the top end a bit, but midrange peaks are going to be primarily cone/dustcap/surround artifacts.

Eminence tends to design speakers that have either a midrange peak or rising trend on top that gives them a characteristic "voice". In particular, Eminence does a very good job of voicing their bass guitar speakers to sound really good with electric bass. And if a designer wants a flatter response, he can filter out the peaks in the crossover (which is what I do).

Now if flat is the goal, one of the flattest prosound woofers I know of is the Faital 12FH520, which uses a neodymium magnet, and you can see its curve here:

http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/12FH520/8/12FH520_datasheet_8.pdf

will ck it out.. may end up building a crossed over 12 w/3012lf and a 6in mid like You recommend.. will appreciate any help on the dimensions and or port(s)/Vent(s)
would have a nice side fill monitor with one of these as well if needed.. not sure if i want a tweet, don't like tweets for bass, and definitely not for guitar.. Thanx Duke
u can see some of my designs at
https://www.facebook.com/pawlee.plushkatz

 

[DukeLeJeune]

will ck it out.. may end up building a crossed over 12 w/3012lf and a 6in mid like You recommend.. will appreciate any help on the dimensions and or port(s)/Vent(s)

I don't use cone mids with my 3012LF/s... but Greenboy does, maybe you're thinking of his fEARfuls?

Eminence has designs posted for small, medium, and large vented boxes using a single 3012LF:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In a mid that goes well with the 3012LF, I'd look at the 5" Faital.

... not sure if i want a tweet, don't like tweets for bass, and definitely not for guitar..

No tweet for electric guitar for sure, but imo a tweet done well is nice for acoustic guitar.

For bass guitar of course it's a matter of taste, but not all tweets (and not all crossovers) are created equal... imo, ime, ymmv, etc.

 

[PawleeP]

I don't use cone mids with my 3012LF/s... but Greenboy does, maybe you're thinking of his fEARfuls?

Eminence has designs posted for small, medium, and large vented boxes using a single 3012LF:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In a mid that goes well with the 3012LF, I'd look at the 5" Faital.



No tweet for electric guitar for sure, but imo a tweet done well is nice for acoustic guitar.

For bass guitar of course it's a matter of taste, but not all tweets (and not all crossovers) are created equal... imo, ime, ymmv, etc.

lmao

 

[PawleeP]

I don't use cone mids with my 3012LF/s... but Greenboy does, maybe you're thinking of his fEARfuls?

Eminence has designs posted for small, medium, and large vented boxes using a single 3012LF:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In a mid that goes well with the 3012LF, I'd look at the 5" Faital.

No tweet for electric guitar for sure, but imo a tweet done well is nice for acoustic guitar.

For bass guitar of course it's a matter of taste, but not all tweets (and not all crossovers) are created equal... imo, ime, ymmv, etc.

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 5fe120-1.htm
Is this the 5 Faital You mean, is it as good as the 18 sound 6 or just cheaper? Thanx

 

[PawleeP]

I don't use cone mids with my 3012LF/s... but Greenboy does, maybe you're thinking of his fEARfuls?

Eminence has designs posted for small, medium, and large vented boxes using a single 3012LF:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In a mid that goes well with the 3012LF, I'd look at the 5" Faital.

No tweet for electric guitar for sure, but imo a tweet done well is nice for acoustic guitar.

For bass guitar of course it's a matter of taste, but not all tweets (and not all crossovers) are created equal... imo, ime, ymmv, etc.

Do You know if one of those 12 subs with a 3012lf would work ok (double function) for a smallish pa sub? would it be better if I was to make cab dimensions a little larger than fearful specs? Thanx PP

 

[DukeLeJeune]

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 5fe120-1.htm
Is this the 5 Faital You mean, is it as good as the 18 sound 6 or just cheaper? Thanx

My apologies for not looking up the model number and/or proviidng a link. The Faital 5FE120 you linked to is a killer little midwoofer, but not loud enough to be used as a midrange in a bass guitar cab.

What I had in mind was the M5N8-80:

Invalid Link Removed

It's not as loud as the 18Sound, but a lot of the 18Sound's impressive loudness comes from a major peak in the 4 kHz ballpark, which is not fully disclosed in the published curves. And imo 4 kHz is not a good place to have a peak unless your goal is to maximize perceived loudness, because that's where the ear is most sensitive. The spike at 4 kHz is a dustcap resonance.

I wouldn't hesistate to use the Faital M5N8-80 in a high-end home audio or studio design.

Do You know if one of those 12 subs with a 3012lf would work ok (double function) for a smallish pa sub? would it be better if I was to make cab dimensions a little larger than fearful specs? Thanx PP

Imo a decent-sized 3012LF bass cab could easily do double-duty as a small PA sub. Unfortunately I don't have a background in PA cabs and can't offer you more than a guess as to what might be a good box size and tuning frequency: Maybe 2.0 cubic feet, tuned to 40 Hz by two 4" diameter ports, 7.5" long, that would give you -6 dB at 40 Hz.

 

[PawleeP]

My apologies for not looking up the model number and/or proviidng a link. The Faital 5FE120 you linked to is a killer little midwoofer, but not loud enough to be used as a midrange in a bass guitar cab.

What I had in mind was the M5N8-80:

Invalid Link Removed

It's not as loud as the 18Sound, but a lot of the 18Sound's impressive loudness comes from a major peak in the 4 kHz ballpark, which is not fully disclosed in the published curves. And imo 4 kHz is not a good place to have a peak unless your goal is to maximize perceived loudness, because that's where the ear is most sensitive. The spike at 4 kHz is a dustcap resonance.

I wouldn't hesistate to use the Faital M5N8-80 in a high-end home audio or studio design.

Imo a decent-sized 3012LF bass cab could easily do double-duty as a small PA sub. Unfortunately I don't have a background in PA cabs and can't offer you more than a guess as to what might be a good box size and tuning frequency: Maybe 2.0 cubic feet, tuned to 40 Hz by two 4" diameter ports, 7.5" long, that would give you -6 dB at 40 Hz.

nice may try it.. just one dumb question.. what is imo? PP
i keep seeing it and have no clue

 

[3rdcurve]

nice may try it.. just one dumb question.. what is imo? PP

i keep seeing it and have no clue

In my opinion