Kappalite 3012HO vs Deltalite 2512II?

[PawleeP]

nice may try it.. just one dumb question.. what is imo? PP
i keep seeing it and have no clue

Would I gave to add volume to compensate for port tube(s)/shelf vent(s)?

 

[PawleeP]

My apologies for not looking up the model number and/or proviidng a link. The Faital 5FE120 you linked to is a killer little midwoofer, but not loud enough to be used as a midrange in a bass guitar cab.

What I had in mind was the M5N8-80:

Invalid Link Removed

It's not as loud as the 18Sound, but a lot of the 18Sound's impressive loudness comes from a major peak in the 4 kHz ballpark, which is not fully disclosed in the published curves. And imo 4 kHz is not a good place to have a peak unless your goal is to maximize perceived loudness, because that's where the ear is most sensitive. The spike at 4 kHz is a dustcap resonance.

I wouldn't hesistate to use the Faital M5N8-80 in a high-end home audio or studio design.

Imo a decent-sized 3012LF bass cab could easily do double-duty as a small PA sub. Unfortunately I don't have a background in PA cabs and can't offer you more than a guess as to what might be a good box size and tuning frequency: Maybe 2.0 cubic feet, tuned to 40 Hz by two 4" diameter ports, 7.5" long, that would give you -6 dB at 40 Hz.

Would I have to add volume to compensate for port tube(s)/shelf vent(s)?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Would I have to add volume to compensate for port tube(s)/shelf vent(s)?

Yes, good job of being thorough!

It's a lot of trouble to calculate the volume occupied by ports, bracing, driver, etc., so a very reasonable rule of thumb is to simply oversize the cabinet by 10%. So 2.0 cubic feet becomes 2.2 cubic feet, and that will be close enough.

 

[will33]

Just for reference, a PA subwoofer has a limited job. It should perform very well in a narrow band of frequencies....pretty much from 40 to 120 hz. Below 40, they are (or at least should be) highpassed, and in a properly setup system will be passed off to your tops somewhere between 80 and 120 hz. So, temporarily ignore the extreme ends and you pretty much want to make them strong as a bull for one single octave, that being the 50-100hz octave. Despite some common misconceptions...in live sound, response below 40 is pretty much wasted performance and they start to get directional above 120, as well as start to catch the bottom end of higher register instruments up there if you're not aux-feeding them.

I believe the standard fearful 12sub has enough box size and port area to make a fine small room sub, albeit low sensitivity. The 15sub, just because of its sensitivity, may make a better one....depending on your output needs vs. packspace, etc. Any of these of course would be crossed over actively...no need for passive filters, just speaker---->jack.

 

[PawleeP]

Just for reference, a PA subwoofer has a limited job. It should perform very well in a narrow band of frequencies....pretty much from 40 to 120 hz. Below 40, they are (or at least should be) highpassed, and in a properly setup system will be passed off to your tops somewhere between 80 and 120 hz. So, temporarily ignore the extreme ends and you pretty much want to make them strong as a bull for one single octave, that being the 50-100hz octave. Despite some common misconceptions...in live sound, response below 40 is pretty much wasted performance and they start to get directional above 120, as well as start to catch the bottom end of higher register instruments up there if you're not aux-feeding them.

I believe the standard fearful 12sub has enough box size and port area to make a fine small room sub, albeit low sensitivity. The 15sub, just because of its sensitivity, may make a better one....depending on your output needs vs. packspace, etc. Any of these of course would be crossed over actively...no need for passive filters, just speaker---->jack.

Thanz for the info on 15 vs 12.. am thinking may one or the other, or one of each.. that way I would have a choice, depending on room/event size etc. is there a passive crossover available that would just allow the 40-120 hz frequencies through.. or would it suck up too much power?
Would want a by-passable set-up for when I use an already filtered feed to go to the sub..
What about a kappa-15LFA.. i know they are heavier thaN THE 3015 KAPPALITE , BUT THEY ARE SUBSTANCIALLY LESS MONEY

 

[PawleeP]

I don't use cone mids with my 3012LF/s... but Greenboy does, maybe you're thinking of his fEARfuls?

Eminence has designs posted for small, medium, and large vented boxes using a single 3012LF:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In a mid that goes well with the 3012LF, I'd look at the 5" Faital.

No tweet for electric guitar for sure, but imo a tweet done well is nice for acoustic guitar.
For bass guitar of course it's a matter of taste, but not all tweets (and not all crossovers) are created equal... imo, ime, ymmv, etc.

if a person (maybe me) was to run 2-10s, would You have any thoughts on pro's and cons of separate chamber for each 10 and another for the mid, vs one chamber for 10's and one for the mid. would you still recommend the faitial for use with 10's?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

if a person (maybe me) was to run 2-10s, would You have any thoughts on pro's and cons of separate chamber for each 10 and another for the mid, vs one chamber for 10's and one for the mid. would you still recommend the faitial for use with 10's?

I think you'd be fine with both 10's in the same chamber, but there are arguments in favor of separate chambers.

The advantages of separate chambers are: greater structrual rigidity; higher internal standing wave frequencies that are therefore easier to absorb with damping material; and if one woofer blows (goes "open circuit"), it doesn't become a backpressure leakage path for the others and make it more likely they'll be damaged from over-excursion.

The advantages of one big shared chamber are: better heat management (especially if you're able to use dual ports and have one below the bottom woofer and the other above the top woofer); and you can spread out the internal standing wave frequencies a bit more - and maybe even use a golden ratio for the internal dimensions.

The Link Removed should work fine with most 10's or 12's or pretty much whatever (I plan to try it with 18's), in its own separate sub-enclosure of course. I do suggest a second-order rather that first-order crossover on the mid if this is to be a fairly high power application.

 

[PawleeP]

I think you'd be fine with both 10's in the same chamber, but there are arguments in favor of separate chambers.

The advantages of separate chambers are: greater structrual rigidity; higher internal standing wave frequencies that are therefore easier to absorb with damping material; and if one woofer blows (goes "open circuit"), it doesn't become a backpressure leakage path for the others and make it more likely they'll be damaged from over-excursion.

The advantages of one big shared chamber are: better heat management (especially if you're able to use dual ports and have one below the bottom woofer and the other above the top woofer); and you can spread out the internal standing wave frequencies a bit more - and maybe even use a golden ratio for the internal dimensions.

The Link Removed should work fine with most 10's or 12's or pretty much whatever (I plan to try it with 18's), in its own separate sub-enclosure of course. I do suggest a second-order rather that first-order crossover on the mid if this is to be a fairly high power application.

please explain 2n/1st order x-over, guess i need to go back to school! LOL

 

[DukeLeJeune]

please explain 2n/1st order x-over, guess i need to go back to school! LOL

First order crossover = 6 dB per octave rolloff = simplest kind, just a single inductor in series with the voice coil for a low-pass filter (on the woofer); and a single capacitor in series with the voice coil for a high-pass filter (on the tweeter, or in this case, midrange).

Second order crossover = 12 dB per octave rolloff = more expensive & more complicated but better protection for the driver. Inductor in series + capacitor in parallel for the lowpass filter; and capacitor in series + inductor in parallel for the highpass filter. Also, and this is less obvious, second-order filters can better handle impedance peaks that the drivers may have, and putting the midrange in a small closed box is going to result in a substantial impedance peak. A first order crossover can fail to adequately protect the driver against too much power in the region of its impedance peak. That's what I had in mind when I suggested a second-order highpass filter for the midrange if this is to be a high-power application.

If you'd like to delve into this arcane topic further, this looks to me like a good introduction:

http://www.termpro.com/asp/pubs.asp?ID=127

 

[PawleeP]

First order crossover = 6 dB per octave rolloff = simplest kind, just a single inductor in series with the voice coil for a low-pass filter (on the woofer); and a single capacitor in series with the voice coil for a high-pass filter (on the tweeter, or in this case, midrange).

Second order crossover = 12 dB per octave rolloff = more expensive & more complicated but better protection for the driver. Inductor in series + capacitor in parallel for the lowpass filter; and capacitor in series + inductor in parallel for the highpass filter. Also, and this is less obvious, second-order filters can better handle impedance peaks that the drivers may have, and putting the midrange in a small closed box is going to result in a substantial impedance peak. A first order crossover can fail to adequately protect the driver against too much power in the region of its impedance peak. That's what I had in mind when I suggested a second-order highpass filter for the midrange if this is to be a high-power application.

If you'd like to delve into this arcane topic further, this looks to me like a good introduction:
http://www.termpro.com/asp/pubs.asp?ID=127

Since my main 2 amps are a tb-1200 and a 06(usa) svt-CL both pretty powerful 2nd order is prolly what I want to go..

Don't mean to hijack(lol) but like learning about these crossover designs.. am working on several prototype speakers cabs and need help regarding the best 15 (out of the ones I have) for a possible bass rig sem-sub 15 wondering if i could build a crossover to x-over (low pass) with slightly higher roll-off point to send to 15, have ev 15b 15L, delta pro clone (yam15), or a black widow would prolly use a 12L or Delta pro 12 (in separate cab) for top (mid-highs) or a 2-10 would the sound level balance out with a low/mid-high pass 2nd order crossover for the upper cab? or would It be better to run 2 amps eq'd accordingly and no crossovers?
I may tune to drop c# on occaision..

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Since my main 2 amps are a tb-1200 and a 06(usa) svt-CL both pretty powerful 2nd order is prolly what I want to go..

Don't mean to hijack(lol) but like learning about these crossover designs.. am working on several prototype speakers cabs and need help regarding the best 15 (out of the ones I have) for a possible bass rig sem-sub 15 wondering if i could build a crossover to x-over (low pass) with slightly higher roll-off point to send to 15, have ev 15b 15L, delta pro clone (yam15), or a black widow would prolly use a 12L or Delta pro 12 (in separate cab) for top (mid-highs) or a 2-10 would the sound level balance out with a low/mid-high pass 2nd order crossover for the upper cab? or would It be better to run 2 amps eq'd accordingly and no crossovers?
I may tune to drop c# on occaision..

If I understand correctly, you want to add a single 15 cab to either a 112 or a 210 cab. I'd first want to match up the impedances (like you'd want them all to be 8 ohm cabs, including the 210, if that's what you go with). Then I'd want them to have similar x-max, or if not, I'd tune their respective boxes so that they both go into over-excursion at about the same power level. The reason is, whichever cab farts out first will be the limiting factor. Then I'd eyeball the frequency response curves of the two cabs and try to figure out what (if anything) to do to the 115 cab, via a passive crossover, to end up with the kind of response I want. For instance if you just want the 115 to boost the region below 200 Hz, you might try wiring an 8 millihenry inductor in series as a starting point.

 

[PawleeP]

If I understand correctly, you want to add a single 15 cab to either a 112 or a 210 cab. I'd first want to match up the impedances (like you'd want them all to be 8 ohm cabs, including the 210, if that's what you go with). Then I'd want them to have similar x-max, or if not, I'd tune their respective boxes so that they both go into over-excursion at about the same power level. The reason is, whichever cab farts out first will be the limiting factor. Then I'd eyeball the frequency response curves of the two cabs and try to figure out what (if anything) to do to the 115 cab, via a passive crossover, to end up with the kind of response I want. For instance if you just want the 115 to boost the region below 200 Hz, you might try wiring an 8 millihenry inductor in series as a starting point.

thanx on the responses Duke, U r kind.. I also agree that the top and bottom should be same impedance per cab..
It it safe to assume that 8 mil henry would rolloff the 200hz and above going to a 15 for semi-sub duty..

 

[PawleeP]

I think you'd be fine with both 10's in the same chamber, but there are arguments in favor of separate chambers.

The advantages of separate chambers are: greater structrual rigidity; higher internal standing wave frequencies that are therefore easier to absorb with damping material; and if one woofer blows (goes "open circuit"), it doesn't become a backpressure leakage path for the others and make it more likely they'll be damaged from over-excursion.

The advantages of one big shared chamber are: better heat management (especially if you're able to use dual ports and have one below the bottom woofer and the other above the top woofer); and you can spread out the internal standing wave frequencies a bit more - and maybe even use a golden ratio for the internal dimensions.

The Link Removed should work fine with most 10's or 12's or pretty much whatever (I plan to try it with 18's), in its own separate sub-enclosure of course. I do suggest a second-order rather that first-order crossover on the mid if this is to be a fairly high power application.

how important would the standing wave frequency freq be? and would the dual port/vent (inducing airflow) above and below driver(s) idea apply to a single driver per chamber as well?

Invalid Link Removed (this thing is 24' deep with 4 separate chambers (swears by separate chambers even foe multiple 10 cabs).. sez it woks well with 5 string too, think he is using old school ev or jbl (maybe k140's)
do u think making a deeper cab than 18' is overkill for a 12 or 15?
wondering what You think.. love the advice on the port/airflow thing.. makes sense since lows prolly kick out a lot of heat!
tried to send u mssg, but didn't seem to work