Double Bass Kay Project Bass?

[Michael Drost]

Folks,

My boys came home with a Kay bass serial #3908. The found it on the curb, in someone's garbage. The neck is toast, however, the body seems to be in really good shape. No cracks.

I have been hoping to someday find a project bass to restore...perhaps this is the one? That's why I am posting this. Perhaps my fellow TBer's could offer opinions on the following questions:

1) Might this be a good project for a novice who has intermediate-level woodworking skills?
2) Should I find someone else to restore it?
3) If I were to restore it, where is the best place to buy necks, fingerboards, tailpieces etc.?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

 

[210superair]

Well good lawd, that's not where I expected the break! Lol.

I am no pro, but have successfully undertaken some repairs beyond what I would have considered possible for me, with the help of the guys here, who are really amazing when it comes to that. With my humble two cents, here we go.

No way to tell for sure the neck is the only problem in that shape. There may very well be other issues hiding.

Replacing the neck will be more job than I've undertaken currently, however, it wouldn't scare me to do it with pointers from JC (not that one, James Condino) and the other fellas here, as well as the wealth of previous posts, but be prepared to do your research, plan ahead, make mistakes, do it again when you mess up. However, considering it sounds like you got the bass free, I'd say it would be worth it even if you fail, and enjoy wood working. There are few challenges like this. Difficult, but doable. I know James has posts on here of such work that would be a good place to start, look those over. If you're not familiar with hide glue, you will be after this. Do a little research on that too. I even have some left over from my last repair, be happy to send you some.

Steven Ayers at kaybass.com will likley chime in on your serial number and let you know exactly what you have here. He's also a wealth of information.

Gollihur for parts, just Google it and it'll come up.

If you decide you don't want to undertake the job, I'll take her off your hands for ya! Lol.

Looking forward to a good ol 'over my head repair' thread, they're my favorite...

Good luck whatever you decide to do!

 

[Steven Ayres]

Do you have the pegbox? Tuners?

 

[Kenan]

Sweet score! Even if you end up paying a pro to restore it, still totally worth it. The necks are my least favorite part of a Kay anyway. My main player is a Kay with a big shim under the fingerboard to make a thicker neck. If you're not specifically looking for that thin Kay style neck, I would suggest looking into what other sources for a replacement neck might work. (Hopefully something you can find used.) Good luck with the project! Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

 

[Michael Drost]

Do you have the pegbox? Tuners?

I do not have tuners and scroll. : (.

 

[turf3]

It makes me wonder if a Chinese bass shaped object could be the donor for a big fat neck/scroll and tuners, plus some of the smaller hardware. Yeah, you'd end up with a Frankenbass, but a very cool one. And the stories! "Yeah, this old Kay? Found it in the garbage..."

 

[Steven Ayres]

Assuming your neck block is solid, your simplest option would be to find an Englehardt neck. Installing it will probably be within your skill set if you seek advice here. Englehardt-Link, the successor to Kay, is gone now, but its tooling and presumably some stock are owned by Upton Bass in CT. Gollihur Music also may have stock parts or know how to get them.

It's certainly possible to adapt a neck from another maker's bass, but because it will have a traditional straight tenon and you have a dovetailed mortise, there will be more work involved. Done right, the resulting joint will be more secure than the original.

If the fingerboard is ebonized maple, as was standard and appears likely in your photos, it's probably not worth the trouble of trying to save. Some of these got ebonized rosewood, which is worth reusing.

Your bass is a 1938 Kay Orchestra, which, before it was stripped and left for dead, looked something like this:

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Absolutely restorable, and there are more than a few old Kays floating around with replacement Engelhardt necks because the original was unusable.

You have no reason to go that route.

Kay and Engel necks are, basically, trash from a lutheirie standpoint. Since the original neck will not be possible to repair and the pegbox and machines are gone, I’d recommend you replace them with a precarved German neck, Rubner machines and a mid-grade ebony fingerboard.

I’d counsel you to open up the neck mortise to fit a properly quartersawn maple neck, if the original block is usable. That will eliminate the possibility of the usual Kay neck heel break, give you a more playable and stable neck, and likely increase low end response.

The above are available, along with the tools you will need, tailpiece, saddle, nut blank, and endpin from Metropolitan Music in Vermont. That’s the Juzek family business, and a lot of us source materials for restoration from them.

And if the job is too much, send it here to me in New York at my expense. That bass should be saved.

 

[james condino]

$350 and you can get a kick a$$ German factory carved neck with a very nice carved scroll from International violin or MET Music that will have enough mass and material to do any kind of big sturdy mortise and tenon joint or a removable neck. I use them regularly and they blow the doors off those Englehardt or old Kay necks. Here is one relic'd & installed as a hidden hardware removable neck on an old blonde 1937 Kay:

Englehardt necks???? Take a mediocre (at best) old Kay design and then use the same production jigs and tooling for 75 years until there is basically a tiny little guitar dovetail left from 50,000 basses before you wearing out the tooling... NOT recommended...

You would not use a cheap Chinese vehicle as a donor for your 1966 Mustang, so please do not do anything like that for your old bass.

The other possibility is to hold on to this body for a while and I'd bet you'll find another beat old Kay with a dead body but salvageable neck & fittings as a donor.

This is a great candidate for improving your skills and bringing a nice old classic back to life. I'd suggest a possible few days visit as a student to someone who knows the inside and outs of these to get you on the fast track with a solid plan...pm me if you'd like suggestions.

 

[Michael Drost]

$350 and you can get a kick a$$ German factory carved neck with a very nice carved scroll from International violin or MET Music that will have enough mass and material to do any kind of big sturdy mortise and tenon joint or a removable neck. I use them regularly and they blow the doors off those Englehardt or old Kay necks. Here is one relic'd & installed as a hidden hardware removable neck on an old blonde 1937 Kay:

View attachment 3721558

Englehardt necks???? Take a mediocre (at best) old Kay design and then use the same production jigs and tooling for 75 years until there is basically a tiny little guitar dovetail left from 50,000 basses before you wearing out the tooling... NOT recommended...

You would not use a cheap Chinese vehicle as a donor for your 1966 Mustang, so please do not do anything like that for your old bass.

The other possibility is to hold on to this body for a while and I'd bet you'll find another beat old Kay with a dead body but salvageable neck & fittings as a donor.

This is a great candidate for improving your skills and bringing a nice old classic back to life. I'd suggest a possible few days visit as a student to someone who knows the inside and outs of these to get you on the fast track with a solid plan...pm me if you'd like suggestions.

Thanks to all for the encouragement and advice!

Thanks, James, for all of the great advice! I may PM you.

I brass repairman/friend of mine has an old Kay neck he salvaged from a bass whose body was destroyed. I am going to check it out and see if it might be a possible donor for the project.

Also, my friend Aaron Reiley(Guarneri House), said he'd be happy to help out. Super cool guy!

My plan is to take it slow and learn as much as I can. I am very excited about the potential of bringing an old bass to life and make to make music on it. : ). I'll keep you updated.

 

[Michael Drost]

Update:

So the bass found in the garbage is playable. I ended up going to work without my luthier buddy's help. A nice distraction during these tough times.

Here's a list of what I did:
Cleaned up the mess of glue in the neck joint. HHG and wood glue.
New tailpiece(donated by a friend) and tailpiece wire.
New saddle.
New nut.
New bridge.
New tuners.
Reglued the fingerboard(The rosewood has a cool white patch visible in the pictures).
Rebuilt the button with laminations made from the "original" heel. There was a nice hole in it where someone jammed a dowel to repair the neck.
New neck(donate by the same friend from above, the neck was from an old school bass(Kay)) with a damaged scroll. I made the best of it. Don't judge. Haha.
Repaired the scroll.
Reset the overstand to about 40mm. (realized this after I set the neck once already...ouch). Used HHG with old spruce from an old piano soundboard. This was the toughest part. Getting a solid fit. Then preparing the neck set. Exciting stuff!
Built the neck heel out with maple transplanted from the broken neck heel that was in the bass originally.
Glued open seams.
New soundpost.
Sanded and revarnished the neck and scroll.
I haven't oiled the neck yet.

My luthier and I are going to set it up together. Plane the fingerboard, bridge, nut, and final adjustments. He's a nice guy and I am definitely looking forward to doing the setup with a pro!

It has been a real learning experience and I am looking forward to my next one. Thanks for your advice! I'm going to patrol the neighborhood on garbage pick up day. Haha.

I hope you are all safe and healthy!

Mike

 

[RSBBass]

I actually like the look of what you did with the scroll.

 

[birgebass]

Wow, I didn't expect this to be updated so quickly... Excellent work!

 

[GretschWretch]

I actually like the look of what you did with the scroll.

My first DB, also a Kay, came to me with that same scroll. I think it is Kay's response to the notorious Gibson headstock break.

 

[james condino]

$#@% Yes; dumpster diving rules!!!!

 

[Michael Drost]

Well,

It’s all done(for now). Haha. I planed and dressed the fingerboard. I’m waiting for a good used set of Spirocores to come up. Aside from that, it’s a player! What a great experience. Looking forward to the next project! Thanks to all for your encouragement and assistance.

 

[crankypants]

Nice work.

I dunno what it is about the remaining scroll, but it kinda gives me the heebie-jeebies. Irrational, I know.

 

[CayGee]

wow - I love it! You guys did a great job!

there's a certain amount of demented charm with the existing scroll - but it's growing on me

 

[rknea]

Holy cow!! Amazing work and a GREAT JOB!! Maybe you've found your next job!! CONGRATS!!

 

[Levin Hannaford]

Great work!

I busted out the tools on a ‘54 Kay a few years back and it’s still
my go-to ride!

A Blonde has some work done - 1954 Kay M1-B content