Double Bass KC Wood/Carbon and Bel Canto

[tonequixote]

That was my sentiment too when I read that response.

As a professional woodworker, I've often been entertained by the informed and educated views of non craftsmen. In the right frame of mind it borders on inspiring.

 

[drurb]

It seems I've been misunderstood. Actually, I found William Hoffman's understanding to be generally spot on. He seems to have quite a good handle on the relevant factors and how they interact.

This thread fits right in with one of the classic internet conundrums. On the one hand, it is helpful and fun to discuss observations, insights, and theories. On the other hand, such discussions can veer off and potentially mislead because the "opinions" are often not grounded in the physics.

Please understand that I was not suggesting that we NOT discuss this stuff. Not at all. What I was trying to point out is that the variance among the relevant physical factors is great enough such that generalizations might not be all that useful.

Let the discussion ring undamped! I appreciate and enjoy observations, anecdotal or otherwise.

 

[RCWilliams]

we did a little experiment at the shop, and found that putting a mineral ground on a pegleg end pin can make a difference as well. the flavor is generally maple... seemed reasonable to me as the basses are generally made from the stuff with the exception of the tops and every thing else that isn't. personally I'm not so sure that the wooden end pins transmit the sound better or worse than something else, perhaps they allow the bass to behave differently. since the peglegs are sort of semi custom, if any one wants a walnut one, no problem, just say so.

 

[uprightbass.com]

Sorry a little time has passed since you replied to my statement.

I thought about the sustain benefits as well. However, the sustain from the endpin could be a negative thing IN THEORY. If the endpin is oscillating at a certain frequency (pitch) and you're playing fast passages, it may muddy up the sound because it takes time for it to change its oscillation speed due to the inertia/momentum.

exactly, drurb.



i agree completely. what you want is a matter of your taste. a loud orchestra bassist might want something other than what a mainly pizz player would want.

yes, stiff resists and conducts. dense and heavy ultimately takes more energy to move because it is inert, but once moving will sustain longer for the same reason.

light is responsive, it is easy to move but will decay more quickly. e.g., a light soft wood isn't stiff enough, a hard denser wood like a drumstick is.

so the theory would be: light plus stiff-resistant-conducive is good for making sound on the bass in an energy-efficient way: easy to get moving with but firm enough to make the bass vibrate and ring out. that is great for pizz especially, and tends towards a brighter sound. but if you play arco on a large, heavy, and dark sounding bass you might actually prefer the steel endpin because that bass might need its additional stiffness and inertia.

interesting, last night i A/B'd a light carbon fiber end pin (it has a light synthetic rubber socket) with my older steel endpin (with heavier hardwood socket). the difference in sound was really amazing. my bass vibrated noticably better and fuller with the lighter pin.



right, they're just sort of "guidelines" anyway...

 

[William Hoffman]

i installed the Onyx all-rosewood endpin from Lemur over the weekend. not only is the thing itself beautiful, it sounds very nice on the gut bass. i've compared/tried 3 endpins (steel, carbon, and wood) on this bass in the past week, and the rosewood is best. it doesn't have the hard, cold, dark of the steel or quite the punchy brights of the carbon, just nice bass with fundamental and mids, plenty of punch with a woody restraint.

...the sustain from the endpin could be a negative thing IN THEORY. If the endpin is oscillating at a certain frequency (pitch) and you're playing fast passages, it may muddy up the sound because it takes time for it to change its oscillation speed due to the inertia/momentum.

if the mind is oscillating too quickly it can come up with some pretty useless theories. not that theory is bad per se. to the contrary, it is a necessary part of thinking. but experience has shown that theories are generally more fruitful if based on sensory perception as well as intuition.

 

[Nuno A.]

i installed the Onyx all-rosewood endpin from Lemur over the weekend. not only is the thing itself beautiful, it sounds very nice on the gut bass. i've compared/tried 3 endpins (steel, carbon, and wood) on this bass in the past week, and the rosewood is best. it doesn't have the hard, cold, dark of the steel or quite the punchy brights of the carbon, just nice bass with fundamental and mids, plenty of punch with a woody restraint.

William, i called Lemur to know more about that endpin and they told me its not all rosewood, the inside is a metal tube, so thats why i didnt get it, cause it would be even heavier than just the metal one .. in fact i was quite disappointed since on the site it says its all rosewood... is it very heavy?
thanks in advance

Nuno

 

[William Hoffman]

Hi Nuno

just to clarify, there are two "rosewood" endpins on the Lemur website. one is "all rosewood" and the other is just called a "rosewood" endpin. one has a metal pin, you can see the picture there. the other -- the one i have -- is a wooden pin and wooden plug, but has a steel spike under the rubber tip.

i've got my three endpins here in my hands just now. the steel is much heavier than the "all rosewood" (which Lemur told me weights 300 grams). in fact, the "all rosewood" is comparable to the carbon fiber i got from New Harmony Music, maybe just a tad heavier.

you might want to re-check your info, Nuno. Lemur says "all" wood, but it does have the spike. doesn't feel like there is metal in it, but please correct me if that's not so.

Bill

 

[uprightbass.com]

if the mind is oscillating too quickly it can come up with some pretty useless theories. not that theory is bad per se. to the contrary, it is a necessary part of thinking. but experience has shown that theories are generally more fruitful if based on sensory perception as well as intuition.

Absolutely.

 

[William Hoffman]

...So, yes, you gotta trust your ears!

yes

 

[hbfosho]

I think the best way to settle this would be for all the people who are selling them to just post videos on youtube showing the different pens, nothing special or adjusted, just pick a bass they have in ranges of $7,000-$15,000 which i think is a fair range for what many talkbassers have. Video with pin that came in and then the other pins they offer, and that will settle this whole debate. and probably make thier sales go up to. Or they could all just send me one and i'll try them out and post videos in hd for them.