Double Bass NEW Euphonic Audio iAMP Doubler

[peterpalmieri]

I spent Sunday playing an electric gig with my 11 piece R&B band outside at a street fair. My Doubler was paired with my NL210. Totally didn't have enough steam to handle the gig I had the master maxed out and the preamp gain set around 1 o'clock. I've done this gig in the past with that cabinet and one of my Glock heads and had no problem carrying it.

I also had the opportunity play DB with my jazz quartet and paired with my VL208 the sound was great I really like the tone this puts out with my piezo only...Volume is no issue and I couldn't be happier.

So thus far my conclusion is that this is a great DB head and if you only play moderate to low volume electric gigs this head is a great solution. Once you get into those bigger electric rooms the volume is a serious issue. For me any gig where I am doubling my electric volume probably does not exede the power capabilities of this head but as a stand alone head to drive a fairly loud band I don't think this is the best solution.

I should note that the tone on this head for electric is also very sweat sounding, just sits right up to the point where you need that little extra volume.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

It's interesting, but I could never use a NL210 singly on on electric gig. A CXL12 yes, but not a NL210. The NL210 bottoms out much earlier for me. And driven by an !amp800, so obviously it's not the power at least for me. Now the NL210 and Cxl12 are both 8 ohms. The effiiciency is similar I think with maybe the NL210 being a bit more efficient. Now I play a bit more of a thicker, old school sound which might demand more out of a speaker at a similar perceived volume, but I haven't brought out the Iamp since I got the doubler.
I have played many electric only gigs with the Doubler and the CXL12. Just for cracks, I pulled out 2 CXL12's for a very loud electric gig. There was way more volume than I could ever use with a 4 ohm load. Now I'm an endorser for EA, but that being as it may I am going to be honest. Our needs and tastes are different. I like the NL210 and think it's a great cab, but it's not for me. It bottoms out too early. Actually it bottoms out easier on DB than electric for me. Probably the piezo. The NL210 sounds WAY better than the CXL12 without EQ. But for me, the CXL12 goes louder and is punchier and with careful EQ sounds perfect. And it's EA's most midrangey speaker I think. And I hate midrange---I EQ a smile out at about 600 to 1000 hz down about 6 db.
The Doubler has plenty of power for a loud EB gig into 4 ohms. For me if I'm playing a stupid loud gig I might bring 2 cabs to get down to 4ohms and have theextra headroom. I'm not doubting you Peter, as all situations are different. I never expected the Doubler to suit my needs as far as loud electric gigs, but I was surprised. Of course the Iamp 800 has more power, but I actually prefer the SOUND of the Doubler. The notes are fatter with more impact at all of the volumes I play. I might get the new 1200 watter for EB, not because of the extra power, but for the more flexible EQ. For me, whatever they have done, the basic sound of the Doubler is what impresses me. And the 1200 watter might be necessary if I get called for a Blue Cheer reunion band.
(for all of you old farts that remember Blue Cheer--the loudest rock band of the 60's)

 

[MLysh]

"If you lived in the Dark Ages, and you were a catapult operator, I bet the most common question people would ask is, 'Can't you make it shoot farther?' No. I'm sorry. That's as far as it shoots."

Jack Handy

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Let's not get into arguing who's catapult shoots further.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Mike I think we can agree that not everybody uses there gear the same way and certainly I'm not shocked that I really like the NL210 as a stand alone cabinet while you and others have different tastes. That's just the way things go.

Where the volume of the doubler becomes an issue is that my Glock Soul rated less then 250 watts at 8 ohms (thanks Jim) is totally capable of handling the gig I was talking about with a single NL210 while the doubler is rated at 310 watts @ 8 ohms and cannot... In the past I've also used an Epifani UL502 and that thing brought the NL210 to very high volumes that didn't limit me. It's apparent that this head compared with other similarly rated heads just isn't putting out the power I would expect.

The concept of carrying around a 2 pound high powered head would be totally negated by carrying around a second cabinet to cover the bigger gigs when a single cab with my glock head or Epifani can do it no problem.

 

[peterpalmieri]

"If you lived in the Dark Ages, and you were a catapult operator, I bet the most common question people would ask is, 'Can't you make it shoot farther?' No. I'm sorry. That's as far as it shoots."

Jack Handy

Cute quote but a bad example.

I think many of us who have owned and used bass amps over the years kind of know what to expect from an amp that states that it puts out 500 watts and when an amp like this just isn't in the ball park it begs the question "WHY?"

Well either my amp has issues or the way EA is measuring watts is different from how others are doing it.

In any case to Mike's point I think the tone is killer...

 

[peterpalmieri]

I'd like to make sure everyone is clear I really like this head.

I didn't mention originally that on Sunday's gig I played 3 sets with the head max'd we played from 1 until 4:30 with two 30 minute breaks. The head was on all day and for the most part in the open sun. Ran like a champ no problems.

 

[Altitude]

Granted , I had the Micro cranked at its limit, but it sounded great the whole time

This, to me, ends up being the crux of every EA discussion. The iAmp 800 I used to have was the best sounding amp I've played through, bar none. The combination of the totally linear volume pot and the nature of the amplification approach they use always led me to have the thing cranked to about 3:00 or 4:00 on gigs. It was hard for me to cozy up to that.

 

[Ric Vice]

I might get the new 1200 watter for EB, not because of the extra power, but for the more flexible EQ. For me, whatever they have done, the basic sound of the Doubler is what impresses me. And the 1200 watter might be necessary if I get called for a Blue Cheer reunion band.
(for all of you old farts that remember Blue Cheer--the loudest rock band of the 60's)

Yeah,
I think that they had to record that band out on a pier cause they were so freaking loud.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I do not doubt that the Glock works better for you. There are some guys that use combinations of axes and gear that sound fabulous and I couldn't get my sound to save my soul. I've played Glocks and EBS gear tons in Europe and think that Glocks are great amps. Like you, I dig them with electric, but can't get my DB sound. It's like SWR stuff (not that SWR is vaguely in the league of Glocks). Some guys sound great with SWR stuff, but I can EQ all day long and still hate the stuff. The basic sound is wrong to me. And guys can talk about measurable eq, slew rate, et all and still there are some qualities that we can't quantify given the measurements we are capable of. I shudder to even suggest it, but I wonder if the NL210 was a 4 ohm load. I bet that that would do it. Now I wish that they would make an NL210 with the same transmission line in the M line or the 4x10. The transmission line in those yields more low end control. I personally think that these compact transmission lines are the most innovative thing that EA has done as far as speakers. I like the CXL not as much for its sound, but for its control and envelope. I can eq to get my sound, but the way the speaker behaves in terms of acceleration and control is inherent in the symbiotic relationship of the drivers and cab, and that is a parameter that no amount of eq would change. And it DID take me a while to get used to running the input volume and master as high as I have with the EA amps. With other amps after you would reach 12 o'clock all you got was distortion. I used the original Micro on lots of road gigs. I've run the Micro with input and output controls full up. Not something that I would recommend. I wasn't overloading the input and it worked like a champ, although I now sweat less with the Doubler.

 

[Ric Vice]

Since I'm not a engineer this is just an educated guess, and all things being of equal quality the power amp shouldn't make any difference, but maybe it does after all. "The Glockenklang Soul“ head rewards it‘s owners with clear, articulate and powerful sound reproduction. It‘s power amp was designed to be lightning fast and to deliver high fidelity performance" That said I like the Doubler's design and features.

Ric Vice

 

[wneff]

This, to me, ends up being the crux of every EA discussion. The iAmp 800 I used to have was the best sounding amp I've played through, bar none. The combination of the totally linear volume pot and the nature of the amplification approach they use always led me to have the thing cranked to about 3:00 or 4:00 on gigs. It was hard for me to cozy up to that.

Well, all thats needed is a different resistor in an op-amp circuit and you have your full power at "5" instead of at "10".

You also have more noise.
Well, and a lower frequency response from the op amp.
And its easier to clip something else.
And you have the false impression that you have headroom when you have none.
Oh, and when you want to adjust your volume it is much easier when you have 320 degrees or so from 0 to full than for 180 degrees from zero to full.

I like AES concept. I run my system normally at "6", sometimes at "8" (loud outdoor gigs). I have never seen the clip LED of the iAMP 800, so I assume there is plenty room.

In fact the legendary old Trace Elliots were the same way. You need to have them all the way up for all the power. Some of the former Trace Elliot guys went to Ashdown, and they designed the first iAMPs for EA. Thats maybe where its coming from.

 

[Altitude]

Well, all thats needed is a different resistor in an op-amp circuit and you have your full power at "5" instead of at "10".

You also have more noise.
Well, and a lower frequency response from the op amp.
And its easier to clip something else.
And you have the false impression that you have headroom when you have none.
Oh, and when you want to adjust your volume it is much easier when you have 320 degrees or so from 0 to full than for 180 degrees from zero to full.

I like AES concept. I run my system normally at "6", sometimes at "8" (loud outdoor gigs). I have never seen the clip LED of the iAMP 800, so I assume there is plenty room.

In fact the legendary old Trace Elliots were the same way. You need to have them all the way up for all the power. Some of the former Trace Elliot guys went to Ashdown, and they designed the first iAMPs for EA. Thats maybe where its coming from.

I know, I know. Their approach is probably technically superior - it just bothered me that I seemed to have to run an 800 watt amp full-out all night long every night for gig volume. I recognize this was something in my mind and not necessarily a fault of the product.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Well, all thats needed is a different resistor in an op-amp circuit and you have your full power at "5" instead of at "10".

You also have more noise.
Well, and a lower frequency response from the op amp.
And its easier to clip something else.
And you have the false impression that you have headroom when you have none.
Oh, and when you want to adjust your volume it is much easier when you have 320 degrees or so from 0 to full than for 180 degrees from zero to full.

I like AES concept. I run my system normally at "6", sometimes at "8" (loud outdoor gigs). I have never seen the clip LED of the iAMP 800, so I assume there is plenty room.

In fact the legendary old Trace Elliots were the same way. You need to have them all the way up for all the power. Some of the former Trace Elliot guys went to Ashdown, and they designed the first iAMPs for EA. Thats maybe where its coming from.

It seems to me and I'm by no means a technical guy. With this amp in particular getting such a clean tone with the master max'd and the preamp gain set around 2 o'clock with such a clear clean tone, there just may be some additional volume that's being left on the table.

I am not sure if this is a problem with my amp in particular or this is just how the design was implemented and is their (EAs intention). In any case I'm going to ship it over to the EA guys and let them take a look. If they can find a way to get me some additional headroom that is great. If this head is truely max'd out in terms of volume that's not an issue I will just have to work within it's limits...

The fact that I did a fairly high volume outdoor electric gig was calculated to test what the outer limits of this head and in particular paired with the NL210 could achieve.

Pete

 

[Bob Gollihur]

When the Acoustic Image Focus first came out I compared its highest volumes to that of my iAMP800, side by side; both were rated at 800w/4 ohms. The iAMP800 won the competition when comparing the two amps' highest power capability before distortion.

I'm no scientist, but the results did not surprise me. Neither did it cause me to believe the AI folks were overstating the Focus' power.

The Focus (and Micro/Doubler) are super lightweights, and I can't help but make the assumption that the many more pounds of extra array of components (transformers, capacitors) in the iAMP800 are capable of extending headroom and handling peaks more cleanly. That's what we are perceiving when running an amp at the upper edge of its capability.

When you scientifically measuring power output I believe it's a matter of continuous power that can be delivered at a moderate frequency at a given distortion level. We are throwing a wide range of dynamics at an amp, not a continuous organ pedal tone (unless we're bowing a note for an extended period). Therefore, our "ear test" of an amp's clean power output when playing at its full potential is going to depend on factors beyond its scientifically derived power rating.

The Doubler weigh less than 3 lbs. If the web facts I found for your Glock are correct, it is 24 lbs, the weight of about nine Doublers, so there are probably a lot more nooks and crannies for reserves of power. I suspect this is probably the "why" behind your continuing "The Doubler isn't as loud as my Glock!!!" theme.

IME real world differences on stage aren't necessarily comparable as they are on the test bench, which is where the numbers come from.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I'm still scratching my head, Peter. I tanked out an NL210 with an Iamp 500 which I don't think had more power into 8 ohms. And it was definitely the speaker bottoming out. Curious.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Bob,

Thanks for the comments, I generally agree with your statements. Maybe I was a little to persistent with "The Doubler isn't as loud as my Glock!!!" but that being said I have also owned an IAMP350, Epifani UL502, Focus 2RIII, have used all of them with my NL210 in the past. Yes all are significantly larger then the doubler but I think generally the whole concept of a micro type amp is that it will be much smaller and lighter and put out substantially the same volume. At least that is my perception.

That being said I'm not knocking the doubler I think it's a great little head and I think I've done a fairly honest job of describing what the upper volume limits are, at least with my current unit as it is. I don't think most guys in the market for this head will see this as a negative if they are playing DB gigs and medium sized electric gigs. It's only when I am pushing the upper limits of what a 2x10 cab can handle that this becomes an issue. Maybe an IAMP pro is in my future we'll see...

 

[peterpalmieri]

I'm still scratching my head, Peter. I tanked out an NL210 with an Iamp 500 which I don't think had more power into 8 ohms. And it was definitely the speaker bottoming out. Curious.

Me too! That's why I am very pleased to have been offered the opportunity to ship it back to the guys and have them once over it for me and have them let me know if everything is ok or not.

 

[drurb]

...Therefore, our "ear test" of an amp's clean power output when playing at its full potential is going to depend on factors beyond its scientifically derived power rating.

Well, it's not that the science is lacking. It's simply that the run-of-the-mill continuous power rating doesn't, as you point out, capture it all. There are a host of other measures that would capture things better. The truth is that no one really wants to perform them and customers wouldn't really want to read them. In addition, in the musical instrument world, even the continuous power ratings aren't really determined in a uniform manner, as they are in the audiophile world. So, yes, you gotta trust your ears!

 

[Mike Arnopol]

+1 as far as Bob's comments. I'm also a stereo geek and remember some 100lb class A solid state stereo amps rated at 25 watts rms. And they would definitely go louder than most 200 watt stereo amps.