I defer to you; I remember you helping me many months back when I was struggling with some issues with standard notation. A retroactive thanks!
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Keeping time while soloing
- Thread starter BernardBass
- Start date
I defer to you; I remember you helping me many months back when I was struggling with some issues with standard notation. A retroactive thanks!
Isn’t it the other way around? Don’t play a solo until you can keep time.
There are many good apps, but my personal preference is for the traditional mechanical ones. Mine is a Wittner 'Tower Line'...
Dude thank you that's amazing stuff!!
My issue is
And the drummer mentioned not coming back in at the end of the bar? But I think he means ^ that
- Losing track of the downbeat ('1') whilst playing your 'solo'
Thanks a million man
Maybe one other thing to work at is your awareness of musical and melodic phrasing. Irish traditional music is great for that. Yes it gets crazy wild, but within the madness there are typically 'themes' or 'motifs' where melody, accent/dynamics and rhythm coincide to bring structure and form. It creates the 'ebb and flow' which binds everything together. Try picking that out - get your foot stomping then listen closely to how the various melodic instruments weave themselves in and out of each other within the pulse. Many of the instruments play single-note parts (flute, fiddle, pipes) and have distinct timbres so can be picked out with a little concentration. Again the purpose is to highten your awareness of, and ability to maintain, the pulse and how it is created.
YMMV
Traditional (mechanical) metronomes are of course a good choice. In particular, they usually have a nice sounding click, unlike the sometimes horrible electronic "beep" produced by most electronic metronomes.
But there are also a few limitations you need to be aware of:
1. if you do not place it on a completely horizontal surface (or if it is a low quality device) it will generate an unven beat (kind of a slightly swung beat).
2. if you want to set it to play only 1 beat (typical use may be to play only beat 1 or only beat 4) in a 4/4 bar, then you need to set it to a very slow tempo (say 30 bpm if your underlying tempo is 120 bpm), which most mechanical metronomes won't be able to do.
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Sounds like you need to build some vocabulary. None of the pros are out there just doing solos spur of the moment on a whim. They’ve learned/transcribed solos and practiced their favorite riffs over and over.
I would start by learning or at least writing some bass solos. Work on one phrase at a time.
I would start by learning or at least writing some bass solos. Work on one phrase at a time.
You can always do it the old school way...look at him and say "1-2-3-4"
Of course, you should be listening to him all the time and know where you are. If you get lost while soloing, why do you not get lost while playing the rest of the song?
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
1. Keep the "1" in your head.
2. Generally it's much more fun "(both for you and the audience) to work with the drummer during your solo, either a full beat or just accents. Interplay is cool.
2. Generally it's much more fun "(both for you and the audience) to work with the drummer during your solo, either a full beat or just accents. Interplay is cool.
If you can't play and think at the same time, don't be reluctant to get your drummer to help you out. In a situation like you're describing, he could clue you to the end of every bar by playing something different -- an accent, a roll, something that lets you know where you are in the solo. I'm guessing your solos are for four or eight bars? So for every fourth bar, he could add some intensity to his playing, or just change it a bit in a way you will notice, and that lets you know where you are and that the end of your solo is coming up.
This should be pre-arranged and practiced. He's not going to be able to help you if the two of you don't already know what his signals to you are going to be when you're mid-solo.
Edit -- I wrote that assuming the drummer is playing with you during your solo. Does he drop out as well? Or does he keep playing? I've told my drummer that I always want him playing with me whenever I solo. It keeps the song going, to the audience's ears at least, and it gives me a consistent reference. If your drummer currently drops out when you solo, I recommend you tell your drummer that you want him playing with you when you solo. It will make your life easier.
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It can help a lot to put your bass down and work on tracking the form/time without it. If your drummer is willing, have him play the section you solo over alone while you record it. Then listen back to it and clap your hands on the one every bar. If there are any signature hits or punches you can clap those as well, and say out-loud the beat they land on if you are able. If not, just clap and say "one" on the one each bar.
When you do pick up your bass, try playing just whole notes (IE one note on the one that rings for the full measure) while again saying "one" out loud on the first beat of each bar. Saying it out loud can reinforce it beyond just thinking, clapping, or playing it.
If you are in a position to rehearse with your drummer, try running the section with him either shouting the time or giving you a clear indicator, like a cymbal hit or hi-hat cue on the one. If you can't follow that you're focusing too much on your bass, so back off, play less notes, or go back to playing whole notes until you can comfortably track what he's giving you.
To further develop your soloing ability it helps a lot to take lessons, learn theory, and start transcribing other bass solos. You don't have to jump straight into crazy technical stuff. There are plenty of songs, like RHCP's "Aeroplane" for example, that have a bass solo that's simple, not very technically demanding, and makes it clear where the groove is. Learn stuff like that and you will improve both your time, solo chops, and the ideas you can utilize when improvising.
When you do pick up your bass, try playing just whole notes (IE one note on the one that rings for the full measure) while again saying "one" out loud on the first beat of each bar. Saying it out loud can reinforce it beyond just thinking, clapping, or playing it.
If you are in a position to rehearse with your drummer, try running the section with him either shouting the time or giving you a clear indicator, like a cymbal hit or hi-hat cue on the one. If you can't follow that you're focusing too much on your bass, so back off, play less notes, or go back to playing whole notes until you can comfortably track what he's giving you.
To further develop your soloing ability it helps a lot to take lessons, learn theory, and start transcribing other bass solos. You don't have to jump straight into crazy technical stuff. There are plenty of songs, like RHCP's "Aeroplane" for example, that have a bass solo that's simple, not very technically demanding, and makes it clear where the groove is. Learn stuff like that and you will improve both your time, solo chops, and the ideas you can utilize when improvising.
loads of info to digest here lads! thanks for everyone that replied...
lol no we are all on stage its a set piece we do to get crowd participation... song breaks down, guitars drop out and me and the drummer just keep a straight 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 (im just playing low e as thats the last note before the breakdown)... singer starts singing and getting the crowd to join in and a bit of schpeil.
its difficult for me to explain as i dont know the lingo but yeah its deffo losing the 1, as in, i might come back in on the 2 or 3 or 4 beat... and in a straight groove (again hard to describe) it all sounds the same... he doesnt play anything to define the end or beginning of anything, its the same beat for like 2-3 mins... if that makes sense? so i never sound off the beat?...
i come back in just playing the low e and then the guitarists come in 1 at a time with a little bit of fiddley while me and the drummer hold the simple groove again.
i beleive the drummer wants me to come in on the 1 at the end of the measure and thats where i get lost... normally id have like a queue or something which i can work from but this bit doesnt happen so i get lost as im just thinking about what im playing not where i am in the measure??
I start my groove by playing...bum bum bum bum 3 and 4 and... bum bum bum bum, bum bum bum 3 and 4 and etc... before launching into something.
a--------------------7--5-7
e-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0--0-----0000000 (some soloy mess made up on the spot afterwards lol) this didn't format on mobile terribly well... Hopefully you get the idea
also where we start in the bit is dictated by the singer/crowd and we've been playing the same thing for a min or 2 prior... drummers constantly counting where as i just tend to "feel" it lol shocking for a bass player i know
apologies if I'm talking out my rear end... lol as you can see i have zero knowledge of the terms needed but trying to get there
just think me and the drummer need to work on it as its always 100% off the cuff and I'm not that talented lol
lol no we are all on stage its a set piece we do to get crowd participation... song breaks down, guitars drop out and me and the drummer just keep a straight 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 (im just playing low e as thats the last note before the breakdown)... singer starts singing and getting the crowd to join in and a bit of schpeil.
its difficult for me to explain as i dont know the lingo but yeah its deffo losing the 1, as in, i might come back in on the 2 or 3 or 4 beat... and in a straight groove (again hard to describe) it all sounds the same... he doesnt play anything to define the end or beginning of anything, its the same beat for like 2-3 mins... if that makes sense? so i never sound off the beat?...
i come back in just playing the low e and then the guitarists come in 1 at a time with a little bit of fiddley while me and the drummer hold the simple groove again.
i beleive the drummer wants me to come in on the 1 at the end of the measure and thats where i get lost... normally id have like a queue or something which i can work from but this bit doesnt happen so i get lost as im just thinking about what im playing not where i am in the measure??
I start my groove by playing...bum bum bum bum 3 and 4 and... bum bum bum bum, bum bum bum 3 and 4 and etc... before launching into something.
a--------------------7--5-7
e-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0--0-----0000000 (some soloy mess made up on the spot afterwards lol) this didn't format on mobile terribly well... Hopefully you get the idea
also where we start in the bit is dictated by the singer/crowd and we've been playing the same thing for a min or 2 prior... drummers constantly counting where as i just tend to "feel" it lol shocking for a bass player i know
apologies if I'm talking out my rear end... lol as you can see i have zero knowledge of the terms needed but trying to get there
just think me and the drummer need to work on it as its always 100% off the cuff and I'm not that talented lol
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i think im not explaining this at all well lads lol the phrase You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear is lepping out at me
I believe you are describing what I would refer to as a bass break vs a solo; in that you are mainly holding the groove down for some number of measures. Brown Eyed Girl is probably the most played bass break of this kind.
The main thing the bass has to get across in a break is to keep the crowd dancing; which means maintaining the primary rhythmic figure. The best way to do this is to learn to play off of the back beats, 2 and 4, with feel. The only exception to this is when the band is playing some kind of March structured piece. Anyhow, trying to count 1’s and 3’s while swinging off the backbeats isn’t impossible, and may be musically correct; but, it can be harder than just getting the back beat feel burned into your brain. Watch a few videos of Gospel choirs to get the correct feel you should be hearing in your head and shooting for.
Also, it is imperative that both you AND the drummer are together; which means that the drummer also has to be emphasizing the 2 and 4, normally on the snare; though the jazzers will do this on the high hat to be a bit more cool. An unaware drummer can make this whole picture a nightmare, particularly if they are mainly pounding 1’s and 3’s on the bass drum. God help us.
Finally, it is equally important to learn to feel your measures, usually in groups of 4 beats, in groups of 4 measures; because almost all breaks are some multiple of 4 measures. Learning to feel these groups and be aware of where you are in a particular group will guide your phrasing; and keeping track of the groups of 4 measures will make sure that your exit from the break is accurate.
Hope that helps.
The main thing the bass has to get across in a break is to keep the crowd dancing; which means maintaining the primary rhythmic figure. The best way to do this is to learn to play off of the back beats, 2 and 4, with feel. The only exception to this is when the band is playing some kind of March structured piece. Anyhow, trying to count 1’s and 3’s while swinging off the backbeats isn’t impossible, and may be musically correct; but, it can be harder than just getting the back beat feel burned into your brain. Watch a few videos of Gospel choirs to get the correct feel you should be hearing in your head and shooting for.
Also, it is imperative that both you AND the drummer are together; which means that the drummer also has to be emphasizing the 2 and 4, normally on the snare; though the jazzers will do this on the high hat to be a bit more cool. An unaware drummer can make this whole picture a nightmare, particularly if they are mainly pounding 1’s and 3’s on the bass drum. God help us.
Finally, it is equally important to learn to feel your measures, usually in groups of 4 beats, in groups of 4 measures; because almost all breaks are some multiple of 4 measures. Learning to feel these groups and be aware of where you are in a particular group will guide your phrasing; and keeping track of the groups of 4 measures will make sure that your exit from the break is accurate.
Hope that helps.
Spend some time working with your drummer, just the two of you. If you can build a method of communication that works for you both, the whole ordeal will eventually be a success.
In your practice time, you may benefit from the 2-week free trial at Scott’s Bass Lessons (SBL). He has an entire course on time-keeping that is excellent. His course on Harmonic Layering will give you some of the musical terminology you’re looking for. And there are a TON of courses on soloing.
SBL helped me bridge the gap between mindless jamming and actually understanding what I’m doing.
In your practice time, you may benefit from the 2-week free trial at Scott’s Bass Lessons (SBL). He has an entire course on time-keeping that is excellent. His course on Harmonic Layering will give you some of the musical terminology you’re looking for. And there are a TON of courses on soloing.
SBL helped me bridge the gap between mindless jamming and actually understanding what I’m doing.
You already have your own solution.
Simply write and or practice soloing.
Good luck,
Dirk
Simply write and or practice soloing.
Good luck,
Dirk
[QUOTE="bass12, post: 26375028, member: 119528"Ask the drummer to help you out with some cues and, lastly, learn some basic theory. There’s no good reason not to and a little can go a long way. [/QUOTE]
This is a great idea, get together with just the drummer and run through a few solos, starting before the solo section. Have him keep the beat goIng, then move to just keeping time on the hi hat. Then have him drop out and come back in with you (when he expects you to end). Good luck to ya
This is a great idea, get together with just the drummer and run through a few solos, starting before the solo section. Have him keep the beat goIng, then move to just keeping time on the hi hat. Then have him drop out and come back in with you (when he expects you to end). Good luck to ya
One drummer I played with was good for extended, musical sounding solos. He could keep everything together of his own accord and keep time through whatever polyrhythmic insanity he was doing. The rest of the band could not make sense of it. He and I worked out a "thing" to keep folks on track for rhythm section solos. When he was off in the land of self-expression, I would hit a note on the one every couple of measures, short and tight. He would give me a look as to when to start upping the frequency of the "hit" to every bar and then finally 4 in a row to gather up the lost sheep of the guitarists and soloists. When I took solos, he would do much the same to keep the hummingbirds near the feeder so everyone know when it was time to take off en masse.
TL;DR version: Plan and communicate.
TL;DR version: Plan and communicate.
It would be much easier to give you a good advice if we heard you solo.
This could be a timing issue but it also could be a form issue. Meaning that you could have perfect timing but still end up not knowing in which bar are you and metronome is not going to solve this.
It's important that you learn to hear the form that you're playing with. Or if it's a single chord jam to hear the 8 or 16 bars cyles and use them when you're developing your soloing.
What you could do if your practice setup allows you is set up a track with only only click and set it so that you know where the beginning of every form is. If you play over 12 bar blues it would be bars 1, 13, 25 and so on. Play a solo and check if after 12 bars your playing still fits the form that you were supposed to play.
You could try walking in one place so that the right foot always lands on beats 1 and 3 and the left one one 2 and 4. This is not ideal but it should give you some direction. In my opinion keeping internal sense of time is crucial but again this is not the same as form.
What you could also do is listen to recordings that feature instrumental solos over repeating forms and try to determine if you can hear the beginning and ending of each new form.
What you also could try is to play a song you're soloing over using chords or simple double stops.
This could be a timing issue but it also could be a form issue. Meaning that you could have perfect timing but still end up not knowing in which bar are you and metronome is not going to solve this.
It's important that you learn to hear the form that you're playing with. Or if it's a single chord jam to hear the 8 or 16 bars cyles and use them when you're developing your soloing.
What you could do if your practice setup allows you is set up a track with only only click and set it so that you know where the beginning of every form is. If you play over 12 bar blues it would be bars 1, 13, 25 and so on. Play a solo and check if after 12 bars your playing still fits the form that you were supposed to play.
You could try walking in one place so that the right foot always lands on beats 1 and 3 and the left one one 2 and 4. This is not ideal but it should give you some direction. In my opinion keeping internal sense of time is crucial but again this is not the same as form.
What you could also do is listen to recordings that feature instrumental solos over repeating forms and try to determine if you can hear the beginning and ending of each new form.
What you also could try is to play a song you're soloing over using chords or simple double stops.
