Key Centers - How to apply for improvisation

[conttador]

Ok, I understand the concept, sort of, so I want to better understand and ultimately apply this knowledge for improvising.

Obviously this not something that will apply on every tune so i want to know if there’s a way that I can identify key centers relatively quickly or is it more about studying tunes and learning key centers in the process. I’ve been told but haven’t set out to prove or disprove, but in essence that usually the key centers is more often than not a minor in a major key and vice versa.

I’ve asked many of my music friends but oddly enough, they always try to steer me back to chord tones but there’s got to be more than chord tones and scale tones.

I also want to understand how you improvise to make things move. If I’m improvising over any tune following the chords the movement is created by literally improvising over the chord changes. Key centers might mean I have, I don’t know, 6 measures or maybe an entire section that fits the key center so how do you deal w all that space in one key (center)? I’m relatively new to improvising but I feel like key centers is the next frontier.

Hopefully you guys can help me fill in the blanks! If you have any recommendations for materials to better understand the concepts PLEASE share!

 

[Jazzdogg]

When you're given an opportunity to solo, what are the musical ideas your hear in your head that you'd like to play?

To me, scales, modes, and arpeggios are useful learning tools, but they aren't what I play.

When soloing, I usually play something that riffs on the melody, like a scat singer.

 

[Wasnex]

Ok, I understand the concept, sort of, so I want to better understand and ultimately apply this knowledge for improvising.

Obviously this not something that will apply on every tune so i want to know if there’s a way that I can identify key centers relatively quickly or is it more about studying tunes and learning key centers in the process. I’ve been told but haven’t set out to prove or disprove, but in essence that usually the key centers is more often than not a minor in a major key and vice versa.

I’ve asked many of my music friends but oddly enough, they always try to steer me back to chord tones but there’s got to be more than chord tones and scale tones.

I also want to understand how you improvise to make things move. If I’m improvising over any tune following the chords the movement is created by literally improvising over the chord changes. Key centers might mean I have, I don’t know, 6 measures or maybe an entire section that fits the key center so how do you deal w all that space in one key (center)? I’m relatively new to improvising but I feel like key centers is the next frontier.

Hopefully you guys can help me fill in the blanks! If you have any recommendations for materials to better understand the concepts PLEASE share!

The most obvious indicator is dominant 7 chords. These usually function as a V chord. Jazz tends to have V and ii V chords a lot more than I or i. Alterations/Extension of dominant chord shapes give hints as to whether the implied key is major or minor.

Music can also be modal, but modal music generally is not functional...I believe there can be exceptions. See Dorian examples at bottom of this post.

Jazz frequently seems to cycle constantly through different key center. Players have different view points on how to think about transient/implied changes to the key center. Many respected players seem to ignore most of them.

You also need to consider the notes in the melody.

Not unusual to have to borrowed chords (modal interchange). Also not unusual to get chords that are ambiguous and non-functional without a lot of mental gymnastics. Written chords may be substitutes for a functional chord. For me seeing the relationship between the subs and functional chords can be very challenging. In my defense, I only attended Theory 101 - 201 which was basically diatonic classical theory.

Examples
Both of these songs are Dorian. They use D dorian and Eb dorian:

 

[Wasnex]

If chords are purely functional, the chord tones will all be diatonic to the key center.

In this context, thinking about chord tones and the key center are often different way of viewing the same thing. However, your note choices are likely to be effected by the change in perspective.

Soloing involves knowing the chord tones as well as the key center. I also involves knowing a vocabulary and a range of formulaic approaches that allow you to play outside. The right choices of notes are also influenced by the style of the music and period you are trying to imply. Probably more to know that any single person can absorb and memorize.

 

[conttador]

When you're given an opportunity to solo, what are the musical ideas your hear in your head that you'd like to play?

To me, scales, modes, and arpeggios are useful learning tools, but they aren't what I play.

When soloing, I usually play something that riffs on the melody, like a scat singer.

I take a similar approach but I think my “vocabulary” is currently limited to intervals or syllables if you will. My goal is to build to phrases that I can just pull from and tell a story.

I use charts to establish a frame if you will and build off of that. I want to learn different approaches to build that frame.

I practice by improvising etudes, I start out comping, then solo a chorus and out. I will also take tunes and play them in different styles, tempos and keys; this helps me really internalize tunes. Heres a sample.



As they say, there’s more than one way to skin a cat, I’m trying to learn a different approach to continue building. One of my old mentors used to say; “It’s a journey, not a destination.” Thanks for helping me on this journey!

 

[conttador]

The most obvious indicator is dominant 7 chords. These usually function as a V chord. Jazz tends to have V and ii V chords a lot more than I or i. Alterations/Extension of dominant chord shapes give hints as to whether the implied key is major or minor.

Music can also be modal, but modal music generally is not functional...I believe there can be exceptions. See Dorian examples at bottom of this post.

Jazz frequently seems to cycle constantly through different key center. Players have different view points on how to think about transient/implied changes to the key center. Many respected players seem to ignore most of them.

You also need to consider the notes in the melody.

Not unusual to have to borrowed chords (modal interchange). Also not unusual to get chords that are ambiguous and non-functional without a lot of mental gymnastics. Written chords may be substitutes for a functional chord. For me seeing the relationship between the subs and functional chords can be very challenging. In my defense, I only attended Theory 101 - 201 which was basically diatonic classical theory.

Examples
Both of these songs are Dorian. They use D dorian and Eb dorian:
View attachment 7377339
View attachment 7377340

That is one of the hardest songs for me to play! So What, Impressions and Milestones LoL! Not because of complexity but the simplicity!

I need to analyze and explore what you said about the dominant 7 chords.

 

[conttador]

If chords are purely functional, the chord tones will all be diatonic to the key center.

In this context, thinking about chord tones and the key center are often different way of viewing the same thing. However, your note choices are likely to be effected by the change in perspective.

Soloing involves knowing the chord tones as well as the key center. I also involves knowing a vocabulary and a range of formulaic approaches that allow you to play outside. The right choices of notes are also influenced by the style of the music and period you are trying to imply. Probably more to know that any single person can absorb and memorize.

You hit on something here:

Soloing involves knowing the chord tones as well as the key center.

The key center part is a blind spot for me. Tunes may have multiple key centers that differ from the key signature.
Here’s an example from a book. How can I apply this in a musical sense?

 

[Wasnex]

How can I apply this in a musical sense?

? The directions seem pretty clear to me.

I think it takes a leap of faith. Follow the directions and understanding should follow (on multiple levels). It may take awhile though.

When I play, my mental process changes constantly. At any given moment, I might think of chord tones, key centers, or use my ears. There is some degree of interaction between these different processes. When practicing and thinking about chord tones and key centers, it informs your ears and allows you to develop a vocabulary. Slow down and experiment over a single bar, two bars, four bars etc. Going slow allows you think about the details. It also allows you to turn concepts and ideas over in working memory and translate those ideas to the fingerboard.

When you are actually performing at tempo, most of what comes out should be intuitive and automatic. There is too much going on for you to keep track of and think about all of the details. You have to play the music in to the point where you can just do it.

 

[Shenron]

You hit on something here:

Soloing involves knowing the chord tones as well as the key center.

The key center part is a blind spot for me. Tunes may have multiple key centers that differ from the key signature.
Here’s an example from a book. How can I apply this in a musical sense?
View attachment 7377364

This thread got me interested, is the "key center" just the root of the key of a song section?

So are you asking how can we figure out the root by knowing only the chords but not the key (otherwise it is obvious)?

Then we can look at some chords that are unique in a natural key, such as the dominant 7th (as wasnex said) which must be the V chord, or a half-diminished chord which must be the seventh chord, or why not a minor Add b9 chord which must be the second, and a #11 chord which must be the IV... and from that count backwards to find the root of the key.

But then is the key center of A minor the C note or the A note? Because if the center of A minor is A, then why couldn't the center of G7 be actually G, if you want it to be a mixolydian key?

Also, this whole thing doesn't hold that well beyond the natural scale or does it? That dominant 7th chord exists also in other scales where it is not necessary their V degree. Something else would need to indicate you the scale, maybe an unusual key signature or more likely an existing melody/theme before the improvisational space.

It's hard for me to pin down the matter in a simple way... when I am only told chords (but not which key/mode they are supposed to belong to), I tend to see room for multiple key choices for me to improvise with.

 

[Jazzdogg]

My brother is a brass player who plays solos as though he has no ideas he is trying to convey; he seems to regard soloing as stumbling from mistake to mistake as gracefully as possible.

When I ask him who played his favorite solos on various jazz standards, he'll mention a player by name, but cannot describe the phrases that he considers exemplars; a "tin ear", but a competent reader.

To me, soloing is all about transitioning from phrase to phrase while trying to provide continuity.

I seem to get as much inspiration for solo ideas from Ella Fitzgerald as from NHOP.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[SteveCS]

Then we can look at some chords that are unique in a natural key, such as the dominant 7th (as wasnex said) which must be the V chord, or a half-diminished chord which must be the seventh chord, or why not a minor Add b9 chord which must be the second, and a #11 chord which must be the IV... and from that count backwards to find the root of the key.

But then is the key center of A minor the C note or the A note? Because if the center of A minor is A, then why couldn't the center of G7 be actually G, if you want it to be a mixolydian key?

Also, this whole thing doesn't hold that well beyond the natural scale or does it? That dominant 7th chord exists also in other scales where it is not necessary their V degree. Something else would need to indicate you the scale, maybe an unusual key signature or more likely an existing melody/theme before the improvisational space.

It's hard for me to pin down the matter in a simple way... when I am only told chords (but not which key/mode they are supposed to belong to), I tend to see room for multiple key choices for me to improvise with.

This is the difference between theory and practice. I am very well versed in music theory, and for the most part it is a fairly trivial procedure to deduce the key from the chords/ melody. But in the end what matters is what is heard, not what is seen or thought. Keys or tonal centres might eventually reveal themselves through analysis, but they ALWAYS reveal themselves through hearing the ebb and flow of, and the tension and resolution within, the harmonic movement.

 

[bass player 53]

The way most jazz musicians look at a tune such as All the Things, is to
recognize the 2-5-1 phrases. These are
measures 6-8, 14-16, 17-20, and
21-24. The last measure of those
phrases is the key of the phrase.
The rest of the phrases cycle in
4th’s in the key center.
One approach for improvisation involves playing variations on the melody. There are various levels of
abstraction, but it is most useful to
practice small variations on the
melody, then incorporate canned
cliche phrases, and then try to
come up with something that you
think may be actual improvisation.
Quoting the exact melody at times
is a common device. Incorporating
tri-tone substitutions, using the
so-called Coltrane substitutions,
and other devices provide the path
to abstraction. Listening to good,
melodic horn soloists is a solid
pathway, as is transcribing parts of
their solos.

 

[Shenron]

Keys or tonal centres might eventually reveal themselves through analysis, but they ALWAYS reveal themselves through hearing the ebb and flow of, and the tension and resolution within, the harmonic movement.

Well but kind of my personal problem is that I don't necessarily want to fall back to functional harmony every time, which is what following the ebb and flow probably does to me...

 

[mambo4]

in essence that usually the key centers is more often than not a minor in a major key and vice versa.

That sounds entirely incorrect to me. The chords will dictate the key center

This thread got me interested, is the "key center" just the root of the key of a song section?

That sounds correct to me

I would guess 80% of key centers in jazz standards will be identified by finding one of these functional progressions:

• ii -V7 changes
• blues changes
• rhythm changes ( I -vi -ii -V7 )

So having familiarity with how they sound and fall on the instrument in many keys will help clue you in
These basics will very often be disguised in substitutions, borrowed chords, secondary dominants, and misspelled inversions on the chart

As for how this can help you solo, it's always a vocabulary issue.
Learn phrases you like in a variety of keys, an understand how they relate to their tonic.
when you notice a key center, pull the phrase out of your bag.
Practically speaking the key center just telling you what note to start on.

 

[mambo4]

I don't necessarily want to fall back to functional harmony every time,

why is functional harmony to be avoided?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I would tend to use the term "tonal center" in preference to "key center," because it's broader. Your tonal center, depending on circumstance, can be a mode (which many if not most don't consider a proper key, even if it can have most of the elements of a key), or a single chord, or even a single pedal note.

"All The Things You Are" is about as clear an example of shifting tonal centers within an overall key as you could ask for. Overall, the tune is in Ab; it starts there, and it ends there through a functional dominant-tonic resolution. But as the image reproduced above clearly indicates, it goes through several temporary tonal centers along the way.

So what does this mean? It means that the notes you select within a given area of the tune, including both chordal notes and nonchordal notes, as well as the ones you choose to emphasize, change. At a fundamental level, it's not conceptually more complicated than that. For example, in the sections that are functionally in Ab, you would be more likely to use Ab, Bb, Db, Eb in your lines, and in the section that's functionally in C, you'd be more likely to use A, B, D, and E.

In a way, this can be almost more important for non-chordal tones--the ones you use to connect chordal tones to each other--than for chordal tones. For example, a basic G7 chord is always G-B-D-F, regardless of its particular function in a given piece. But if you wanted to connect it to a C chord within the tonal center of C major in a stepwise manner, you might play G-F-E-D-C; whereas if you wanted to connect a G7 to C minor within the tonal center of E flat, you might play G-F-Eb-D-C, because that would be more in accord with that tonal center.

Please note, however, that I'm simplifying things quite a bit here. There are more nuances and wrinkles.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

That sounds entirely incorrect to me.

Because it is!

 

[conttador]

This is the difference between theory and practice. I am very well versed in music theory, and for the most part it is a fairly trivial procedure to deduce the key from the chords/ melody. But in the end what matters is what is heard, not what is seen or thought. Keys or tonal centres might eventually reveal themselves through analysis, but they ALWAYS reveal themselves through hearing the ebb and flow of, and the tension and resolution within, the harmonic movement.

I think that’s the end goal. I can honestly say my ears and overall experience aren’t there yet so for me, I want to understand the concept so that when my ears & skill catchup it becomes just another tool.

Most of the seasoned players I play with always tell me to listen but that skill is not yet developed.

 

[Shenron]

why is functional harmony to be avoided?

It isn't... it's just my personal preference at this time to explore a more modal approach to improvisation.

 

[conttador]

Because it is!

I thought it was too simple; it’s rarely ever that simple lol