Key Centers - How to apply for improvisation

[Wasnex]

That dominant 7th chord exists also in other scales where it is not necessary their V degree.

This is true. However in music with functional harmony, AFAIK a dominant 7 chord will tend to function as a V7 chord the vast majority of the time.

Although it does not meet the strict classical definition of diatonic, I treat minor as including: tonic 1, major 2, minor 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, major 6, minor 7, major 7. I.E. the natural, harmonic and (jazz) melodic scales and their associated notes are all treated as diatonic.

Hopefully I did the following harmonizations correctly. In natural minor the 5 chord is a minor 7 chord. Also the dominant shape is seen in the 7 chord. I don't believe we see this very often in practice with "modern" music.

 

[pjb15]

You have a song.

Song is in a key.

Let’s say that key is C major.

Most of the melody and most of the chords will use the notes from C major.

Start your improvising by using the pentatonic in your key. C major pentatonic in this case.

Arpeggiate each chord and see if any of the chord tones are outside of the scale.

Let’s say you have a D7 chord in the tune. That’s D F# A C. It’s outside of the key of C for a moment because of the F#.

Begin by using your major pentatonic for the whole tune except when you get to chords that are outside the key signature, like the D7. When you get to these chords target the new note.

This is the first step.

 

[conttador]

? The directions seem pretty clear to me.
View attachment 7377368

I think it takes a leap of faith. Follow the directions and understanding should follow (on multiple levels). It may take awhile though.

When I play, my mental process changes constantly. At any given moment, I might think of chord tones, key centers, or use my ears. There is some degree of interaction between these different processes. When practicing and thinking about chord tones and key centers, it informs your ears and allows you to develop a vocabulary. Slow down and experiment over a single bar, two bars, four bars etc. Going slow allows you think about the details. It also allows you to turn concepts and ideas over in working memory and translate those ideas to the fingerboard.

When you are actually performing at tempo, most of what comes out should be intuitive and automatic. There is too much going on for you to keep track of and think about all of the details. You have to play the music in to the point where you can just do it.

I think I’m expecting a magical portal to open but like anything; it takes practice; lots of it!

It’s taken years to get to a point were I’m not thinking as much. One of the most liberating things has been learning g the fretboard. It’s one less thing to worry about when I play.

My playing is becoming more & more intuitive as I learn more. I need a better understanding of harmony; is my takeaway from this discussion.

 

[conttador]

So what does this mean? It means that the notes you select within a given area of the tune, including both chordal notes and nonchordal notes, as well as the ones you choose to emphasize, change. At a fundamental level, it's not conceptually more complicated than that. For example, in the sections that are functionally in Ab, you would be more likely to use Ab, Bb, Db, Eb in your lines, and in the section that's functionally in C, you'd be more likely to use A, B, D, and E.

In a way, this can be almost more important for non-chordal tones--the ones you use to connect chordal tones to each other--than for chordal tones. For example, a basic G7 chord is always G-B-D-F, regardless of its particular function in a given piece. But if you wanted to connect it to a C chord within the tonal center of C major in a stepwise manner, you might play G-F-E-D-C; whereas if you wanted to connect a G7 to C minor within the tonal center of E flat, you might play G-F-Eb-D-C, because that would be more in accord with that tonal center.

Please note, however, that I'm simplifying things quite a bit here. There are more nuances and wrinkles.

What’s your thinking when it comes to note choices? One of the things I get called out by more seasoned players is almost always starting on the tonic.

I work in Risk and most everything I deal with is like “If X happens do Y.” I forget music is hardly this black and white. I guess it can be but I want more.

How does one internalize all this? I think the answer is to listen.

What should I be listening for and how do I relate that to my instrument?

 

[SteveCS]

Well but kind of my personal problem is that I don't necessarily want to fall back to functional harmony every time, which is what following the ebb and flow probably does to me...

Not necessarily. Modes and modal melodies also have centres. Most atonal melodies and motifs also have points of high/low energy, rest/dynamism or tension/resolution.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

What’s your thinking when it comes to note choices? One of the things I get called out by more seasoned players is almost always starting on the tonic.

I work in Risk and most everything I deal with is like “If X happens do Y.” I forget music is hardly this black and white. I guess it can be but I want more.

How does one internalize all this? I think the answer is to listen.

What should I be listening for and how do I relate that to my instrument?

Well, that's a broader set of questions than I think I could effectively answer in this setting, but maybe a couple of suggestions could help.

First, yes, listening is crucial, but it should be accompanied by some form of analysis. It's useful not just to hear and imitate what some accomplished player might have done but also to look at it against the harmonic background and try to understand why it works (assuming it does). Also, think about whether there's some generalizable practice you can derive from it for future application to other keys, chords, or compositions. To take a very simple example, suppose player A starts her solo on a nonchordal tone but then resolves to a chordal tone. Does that sound good? Which tones were used? Maybe a flat 3 to a 3, or a 6 down to a 5? How quickly did the resolution happen? Once you can generalize what was done, you can reapply it elsewhere. (As I said, this is a very simple example.)

Second, as regards not starting on the root, besides saying "try not to do that very often," it's hard to be specific. One thing I suggest is simply, have some kind of germ of an organizing idea that's not yoked to the sequence of the chord roots. You could, for example, take some inspiration from the melody. You could quote it, or deliberately avoid it. You could invert it, stretch it out, shorten it. You could play something that's inspired by the *shape* of the melody but contains none of the notes. You could make up a whole new melody in your head that fits the chords, and play that.

You could also be inspired by the rhythm of the melody or the groove. If the melody is note-y, play something different that's similarly note-y, or play something that's deliberately NOT note-y. Or if the groove is suggesting specific kinds of phrasing, play something that reflects that phrasing but doesn't necessarily reflect any melodies already used in the piece.

The main thing would be just to have some sort of definite idea, even just a fragment of one, to get you started, rather than than just getting to a chord, hitting the root, and then wondering, "Now what?" Something that might help with that is to get familiar with the melodies of the tunes you play, if you can. Learn to play the melodies if you like--can't hurt--but at least get them, or some approximation of them, into your head. Then mine them for ideas.

I know I'm being very general and basic, but HTH.

 

[conttador]

Well, that's a broader set of questions than I think I could effectively answer in this setting, but maybe a couple of suggestions could help.

First, yes, listening is crucial, but it should be accompanied by some form of analysis. It's useful not just to hear and imitate what some accomplished player might have done but also to look at it against the harmonic background and try to understand why it works (assuming it does). Also, think about whether there's some generalizable practice you can derive from it for future application to other keys, chords, or compositions. To take a very simple example, suppose player A starts her solo on a nonchordal tone but then resolves to a chordal tone. Does that sound good? Which tones were used? Maybe a flat 3 to a 3, or a 6 down to a 5? How quickly did the resolution happen? Once you can generalize what was done, you can reapply it elsewhere. (As I said, this is a very simple example.)

Second, as regards not starting on the root, besides saying "try not to do that very often," it's hard to be specific. One thing I suggest is simply, have some kind of germ of an organizing idea that's not yoked to the sequence of the chord roots. You could, for example, take some inspiration from the melody. You could quote it, or deliberately avoid it. You could invert it, stretch it out, shorten it. You could play something that's inspired by the *shape* of the melody but contains none of the notes. You could make up a whole new melody in your head that fits the chords, and play that.

You could also be inspired by the rhythm of the melody or the groove. If the melody is note-y, play something different that's similarly note-y, or play something that's deliberately NOT note-y. Or if the groove is suggesting specific kinds of phrasing, play something that reflects that phrasing but doesn't necessarily reflect any melodies already used in the piece.

The main thing would be just to have some sort of definite idea, even just a fragment of one, to get you started, rather than than just getting to a chord, hitting the root, and then wondering, "Now what?" Something that might help with that is to get familiar with the melodies of the tunes you play, if you can. Learn to play the melodies if you like--can't hurt--but at least get them, or some approximation of them, into your head. Then mine them for ideas.

I know I'm being very general and basic, but HTH.

Definitely helps but the key takeaway is understanding harmony is a must!

When I play, I read a chord chart and I may know the key, understand that the piece is moving in 4ths but I don’t really know the harmonic relationship between the A & B section and that would probably help me build better lines and phrases.

Thanks for sharing your insights!

 

[wompwomp]

What’s your thinking when it comes to note choices? One of the things I get called out by more seasoned players is almost always starting on the tonic.

I work in Risk and most everything I deal with is like “If X happens do Y.” I forget music is hardly this black and white. I guess it can be but I want more.

How does one internalize all this? I think the answer is to listen.

What should I be listening for and how do I relate that to my instrument?

don't think about the bass as a bass you are free to think of it as another instrument entirely. try this: sing your solo and then transcribe it on the bass. hopefully you don't start by singing the tonic lol.

in truth the guitar (including the bass guitar) is not a 'real' instrument it is more like a model of itself and many other instruments. the solo is not you playing the bass, it is you playing the music.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

the key takeaway is understanding harmony is a must!

Absolutely that's a must, but it's also very important to understand melody and rhythm, and how they relate to the harmony.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

in truth the guitar (including the bass guitar) is not a 'real' instrument it is more like a model of itself and many other instruments.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why should any instrument be any more or less real than another?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

the solo is not you playing the bass, it is you playing the music.

This OTOH makes a lot of sense!

 

[wompwomp]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why should any instrument be any more or less real than another?

this is not conducive to op's inquiry, happy to pm

 

[Wasnex]

What’s your thinking when it comes to note choices? One of the things I get called out by more seasoned players is almost always starting on the tonic.

Tonic is the first note of the diatonic scale. So if you are Ab Major, like here:

Starting on the tonic means you start on Ab. Somehow I don't think this is what you meant.

Do you mean you have a tendency to play the root of the chord? I.E. you would tend to start the bars with F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db.

This is a normal tendency for a bass player...as it's usually your job to play and emphasize the roots of chords.

One way to get away from this is to learn and practice the chord inversions
Root Position: F,Ab,C,Eb
1st Inversion: Ab,C,Eb,F
2nd Inversion: C,Eb,F,Ab
3rd Inversion: Eb,F,Ab,C

(You can practice the inversions up and down).

Generally melody tends to use a lot of linear or step-wise motion, rather than arpeggiated chord tones. So using inversions is a step in the right direction, but it will still sound somewhat naive.

Combine the inversions with a focus on the key center will get you closer. This means you will always start on a chord tone, which is not strictly necessary.

A related idea is voice leading (4 part harmony). As I mentioned the bass tends to follow root movement. The inner voices tend to jump to the nearest chord tone, but in classical there is a desire to avoid parallel fifths.

Another way to look at it is to think of target tones.

Something you may be missing is that a certain amount of study and composition usually goes into developing good solos. I think inexperienced players tend to assume that solos are totally impromptu. IMHO, For the vast majority of players this is not accurate. Most of what the typical mortal plays during a solo is stuff they have worked out previously....IMHO very little of it is actually improvised on the spot. The appearance of improvisation it's mostly illusion.

 

[logdrum]

Playing outside or creating tension will only sound coherent if you can play in time. So rather than be bogged down how you can sound sophisticated, you can stick to chord tones and chromatic devices but play with the time. So for ATYA what is the pattern that the hihat, ride and bass drum that is laid on the A and B part. Tap a beat something to counter and embellish that. Even you just did chord tones and simple melodic riffs, it will sound great if you are in time. Never sound like you are grasping. Also you can distill the chord or key centers using Pat Martino"s convert everything nto minor or George Benson's 2 note arpeggios. Look it up and they will usually use ATYA as the standard to study

Remember many tunes will not use II V I or RC.

 

[aprod]

This is true. However in music with functional harmony, AFAIK a dominant 7 chord will tend to function as a V7 chord the vast majority of the time.

Although it does not meet the strict classical definition of diatonic, I treat minor as including: tonic 1, major 2, minor 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, major 6, minor 7, major 7. I.E. the natural, harmonic and (jazz) melodic scales and their associated notes are all treated as diatonic.

Hopefully I did the following harmonizations correctly. In natural minor the 5 chord is a minor 7 chord. Also the dominant shape is seen in the 7 chord. I don't believe we see this very often in practice with "modern" music.

View attachment 7377434

Ever heard of secondary dominants?

 

[conttador]

Tonic is the first note of the diatonic scale. So if you are Ab Major, like here:
View attachment 7377511
Starting on the tonic means you start on Ab. Somehow I don't think this is what you meant.

Do you mean you have a tendency to play the root of the chord? I.E. you would tend to start the bars with F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db.

This is a normal tendency for a bass player...as it's usually your job to play and emphasize the roots of chords.

One way to get away from this is to learn and practice the chord inversions
Root Position: F,Ab,C,Eb
1st Inversion: Ab,C,Eb,F
2nd Inversion: C,Eb,F,Ab
3rd Inversion: Eb,F,Ab,C

(You can practice the inversions up and down).

Generally melody tends to use a lot of linear or step-wise motion, rather than arpeggiated chord tones. So using inversions is a step in the right direction, but it will still sound somewhat naive.

Combine the inversions with a focus on the key center will get you closer. This means you will always start on a chord tone, which is not strictly necessary.

A related idea is voice leading (4 part harmony). As I mentioned the bass tends to follow root movement. The inner voices tend to jump to the nearest chord tone, but in classical there is a desire to avoid parallel fifths.

Another way to look at it is to think of target tones.

Something you may be missing is that a certain amount of study and composition usually goes into developing good solos. I think inexperienced players tend to assume that solos are totally impromptu. IMHO, For the vast majority of players this is not accurate. Most of what the typical mortal plays during a solo is stuff they have worked out previously....IMHO very little of it is actually improvised on the spot. The appearance of improvisation it's mostly illusion.

Yes, I almost always start on the root! Thank you for spelling out the inversions; I’ll definitely work on those too.

I’ve listened enough in my time and I recognize that most musicians have a repertoire they pull from.

I have no formal music training outside of regular lessons but I’m an older player. I started in my teens but stopped for a looong time and picked it back up in my late 40s. My goal is to retire and then become a working musician. I gig here & there but I mostly do open jams. All that to say that I would like to take some theory and comp classes as I see the value in understanding theory, the little I know has helped me improve.

 

[Shenron]

Not necessarily. Modes and modal melodies also have centres.

That's why I asked whether for example the key center of a G7 couldn't be the G if you're thinking mixolydian, rather than the C if you're thinking tonal.

 

[Wasnex]

Ever heard of secondary dominants?

Yes. A secondary dominant has a V7 relationship to whatever chord it relates to, but it does not function as a V7 in the prevailing key center.

 

[SteveCS]

Well but kind of my personal problem is that I don't necessarily want to fall back to functional harmony every time, which is what following the ebb and flow probably does to me...

It depends on what you mean by 'functional'. The idea that functional harmony means staying in the same key and only sticking to diatonic chords does the whole concept a total disservice. It all comes down to resolution/cadence, and how far away from the 'centre' and how many temporary 'centres' you want to visit before finally stating 'The End'. This is Mahler 2 - I've set a time stamp to start at the 5th movement.



From Wikipedia: "Tonally, this first large part, the instrumental half of the movement, is organized in F minor. After the introduction, which recalls two keys from earlier movements, the first theme group is presented wholly in F minor, and the second theme group in the subdominant, B♭ minor. The restatement of the first theme group occurs in the dominant, C major. The development explores a number of keys, including the mediant, A♭ major, and the parallel major, F major. Unlike the first movement, the second theme is recapitulated as expected in the tonic key. The restatement of the introduction is thematically and tonally a transition to the second large part, moving from C♯ minor to the parallel D♭ major — the dominant of F♯ minor — in which the Great Summons is stated. The Epiphany comes in, played by the flute, in a high register, and featuring trumpets, that play offstage. The choral section begins in G♭ major."

 

[SteveCS]

But then is the key center of A minor the C note or the A note?

It's A

Because if the center of A minor is A, then why couldn't the center of G7 be actually G, if you want it to be a mixolydian key?

Mixolydian isn't a key, it's a mode.

Also, this whole thing doesn't hold that well beyond the natural scale or does it? That dominant 7th chord exists also in other scales where it is not necessary their V degree.

Indeed. In particular minor keys have 3 diatonic chords that follow the 'Dominant 7' interval construction of Root, M3, P5 & m7.

It is also worth observing that there are 3 diminished triads plus 3 ½-diminished (m7b5) and one fully diminished 7th chords that also have dominant tendencies, i.e. they contain at least one tritone that seeks resolution. So there are 3 (7) 'jumping off' points in the minor key compared to just 1 (2) in the major key.