Key or Chords in walking bass

[vin*tone]

...or none of the above.

So I've been listening to a lot of ska basslines lately but I think this will apply to most walking styles, but do you think chords or key?

Here's an example to show what I mean, I hope: Let's say you're playing a I-vi-IV-V in D. Ska is(or at least can be) fast, and to make it "faster", let's say the chord changes every 2 beats. Would you think "This is in D major so I'll stick to that scale" or would you think "it'd D for two beats, so work on that arpeggio, then Bm, then G, then E"? I feel like I want to do the later, but I'm having trouble planning for the next chord. Obviously,(or at least hopefully), I'll get better w/ practice, but do YOU stick to what theory says is more consonant, or do you take "shortcuts" to keep up?

I'm curious to know what sort of ska you are talking about. 2-tone, modern or original Jamaican?

Are they covers or originals?

 

[vin*tone]

Ed has added quite a lot to this site about walking lines, on which he is expert. Perhaps you might want to make a search.

Thats all the more reason why people would be curious what he has to say.

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

Ed has added quite a lot to this site about walking lines, on which he is expert. Perhaps you might want to make a search.

Soooo if you have some worthwhile content somewhere Talkbass the thing to do is pop in to someone's thread (where they're asking for help), proclaim that everyone that actually has tried to help doesn't know what they're talking about and leave it at that. Sounds legit.

If what's-his-name had something to offer in another thread he should have provided a link to it.

 

[DavC]

the root of the chord , then use the notes in that chord , and the scale for the given key ... to move from chord to chord ... adding accidentals as leading tones will give some more flexibility ...

doesn't seem like the blues 'walking bass' as i'd think of it .. ? which feels purposefully directional ... to lead you from 1 chord to the next ...

 

[Frenchy-Lefty]

Ska = Chord tones. Forget the key.

Root - third (minor or major) - fifth - Octave

Try to play those notes in different order

Ska is not BeBop Jazz. It is a much more rudimentary and basic type of walking bass and needs to stay that way. If you'd just play those notes in a Jazz walking bass it would not sound really jazzy.

Short and sweet. Keep practicing you'll get it.

 

[frsbdg]

...or none of the above.

So I've been listening to a lot of ska basslines lately but I think this will apply to most walking styles, but do you think chords or key?

Here's an example to show what I mean, I hope: Let's say you're playing a I-vi-IV-V in D. Ska is(or at least can be) fast, and to make it "faster", let's say the chord changes every 2 beats. Would you think "This is in D major so I'll stick to that scale" or would you think "it'd D for two beats, so work on that arpeggio, then Bm, then G, then E"? I feel like I want to do the later, but I'm having trouble planning for the next chord. Obviously,(or at least hopefully), I'll get better w/ practice, but do YOU stick to what theory says is more consonant, or do you take "shortcuts" to keep up?

I would never think your first thought. You could play all kinds of notes in the key of D major that don't support the chord progression. You've described eight beats - I'd play the root notes on beats 1, 3, 5,and 7, and either scale notes or chromatic approach notes on beats 2, 4, 6, and 8, but they wouldn't be just random notes.

 

[Jay Corwin]

If I was faced with a song that changed chords every two beats, for the entire song, I'd find another song. His question also asked about how to walk that bass line. Impossible situation I'm afraid..

Don't bother with jazz then.

 

[Matthijs]

Soooo if you have some worthwhile content somewhere Talkbass the thing to do is pop in to someone's thread (where they're asking for help), proclaim that everyone that actually has tried to help doesn't know what they're talking about and leave it at that. Sounds legit.

If what's-his-name had something to offer in another thread he should have provided a link to it.

Did you do that google search? Please do before you post anything else. He litteraly wrote the book on this subject.

 

[Febs]

Did you do that google search? Please do before you post anything else. He litteraly wrote the book on this subject.

That's what makes it disappointing when he makes posts like the one in this thread. I think my prior post is consistent with Ed's book (although obviously the book contains a much more detailed treatment of the subject) but if he disagrees, I'd rather have him say it directly so that I can consider his criticism rather than having him post a single vague sentence which leaves me wondering whether he has an issue with what I posted or whether he is referring to other posts in the thread.

 

[basslayer]

ska walking bass lines (at least the ska i have listened to and played) are built around chord tones.

 

[Matthijs]

That's what makes it disappointing when he makes posts like the one in this thread. I think my prior post is consistent with Ed's book (although obviously the book contains a much more detailed treatment of the subject) but if he disagrees, I'd rather have him say it directly so that I can consider his criticism rather than having him post a single vague sentence which leaves me wondering whether he has an issue with what I posted or whether he is referring to other posts in the thread.

I'm curious too, but in some cases and with some people it is better to suck in your disappointment, even if it is justified, and patiently hope he returns with more information instead of heckling him. The participation of people like Ed is what makes TB stand out from other forums, that's something we should treat with care.

 

[matt holt]

to me the answer is yes

 

[chrisbacardi]

That's what makes it disappointing when he makes posts like the one in this thread. I think my prior post is consistent with Ed's book (although obviously the book contains a much more detailed treatment of the subject) but if he disagrees, I'd rather have him say it directly so that I can consider his criticism rather than having him post a single vague sentence which leaves me wondering whether he has an issue with what I posted or whether he is referring to other posts in the thread.

I've noticed that he is often pretty rude and dismissive

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The participation of people like Ed (Fuqua) is what makes TB stand out from other forums, that's something we should treat with care.

What I've learned so far at this forum,
NEVER ARGUE WITH ED FUQUA - just listen and try to understand him.
Ed knows so much from his very extensive jazz musicians background.

 

[electracoyote]

...or none of the above.

So I've been listening to a lot of ska basslines lately but I think this will apply to most walking styles, but do you think chords or key?

Here's an example to show what I mean, I hope: Let's say you're playing a I-vi-IV-V in D. Ska is(or at least can be) fast, and to make it "faster", let's say the chord changes every 2 beats. Would you think "This is in D major so I'll stick to that scale" or would you think "it'd D for two beats, so work on that arpeggio, then Bm, then G, then E"? I feel like I want to do the later, but I'm having trouble planning for the next chord. Obviously,(or at least hopefully), I'll get better w/ practice, but do YOU stick to what theory says is more consonant, or do you take "shortcuts" to keep up?

With walking lines, and when the pace is that fast, you do have to anticipate what pattern you want to play next while you're playing the current pattern over the immediate chord. I always think in terms of chords and the appropriate notes within the chords. I'm also a guitar player, so that may have something to do with it. When improvising solos and melody lines on guitar, I often use chord shapes. Of course, you are sometimes also using passing notes not necessarily found in the chord shape, but if you have a good vocabulary of appropriate patterns for bass lines, it's more instinctive. But thinking a measure ahead definitely helps.

 

[mrbell321]

All(or mostly ) good feedback.

Everything depends on what kind of line you're supporting. If you are backing up a soloist in a jazz group at the beginning of his solo, you may want to stick with chord tones, and then add more non-chordal tones, thinking in tonal centers, when the soloist starts becoming more chromatic. Or if the guitarist or pianist starts using block chords in the solo, you might want to stick entirely with roots and fifths. And sometimes you can go completely chromatic and play outside, as long as you don't lose the form.

"thinking in tonal centers". I think "tonal center" is a bit of a vague term. It could mean the "tonal center of a chord" or the "tonal center of a key", right? So -- and this is just my searching for an excuse to play poorly -- when the chords are moving faster than I can think ahead, I'm going to fall back to something I "know",(ie, the key) even if it's dissonant for the chord at the time. Basically a crutch until I catch my breath.

Ska = Chord tones. Forget the key.

Root - third (minor or major) - fifth - Octave

Try to play those notes in different order

Ska is not BeBop Jazz. It is a much more rudimentary and basic type of walking bass and needs to stay that way. If you'd just play those notes in a Jazz walking bass it would not sound really jazzy.

Short and sweet. Keep practicing you'll get it.

Yeah, but practice is hard!

Also, I'm thinking bebop ska could be a new thing...


Also, someone above(I didn't quote it and I've lost it from my view at the moment) asked what kind of ska. I've actually been listening to all "waves", but the hyper tempo tends to be third wave/ska-punk.

As a side note(er... complaint, really), I really wish people would put the relevant chords when tabbing out basslines...

 

[JimmyM]

As a side note(er... complaint, really), I really wish people would put the relevant chords when tabbing out basslines...

If they could do that, they wouldn't be tabbing

Honestly, the type of music you're playing is sort of immaterial to whether your walking bassline works. I tend to go with the chords myself, but that doesn't mean that notes outside the chords won't sound good. For example, take a walking bassline in C...you can outline the chord and play C-E-G-E on top of it over and over, but that can tend to sound static and uninteresting after the first 10 times you do it. You can mix those notes up a little and go C-E-G-E-C-G-E-G, which is a little more interesting, or you can do something like C-D-D#-E-G-F-E-D, which gets even more interesting. True, the notes D, D#, and F aren't part of a C chord, but in context, a walking bassline like that can be quite good. Or you can take a typical "praise bass" walking like C-E-F-F#-G-A-A#-B, which is also very good on top of a C chord despite containing several notes that aren't in a C chord.

This is not to say that outlining the chords exactly can't work, because there are many examples of where it does work very well. Take the old 60's song "May I" by Bill Deal And The Rhondells. It's set to a ska beat, and the bass spends almost the whole song playing root-V, and it's perfect for that song, and other notes tend to sound bad. But for me, the important thing to remember is that keys and chords are not hard and fast rigid rules that must be applied exactly without wavering. They are merely suggestions, and any notes in the chromatic scale can be applied if you know how to place them in the right spots. That's why books on walking basslines are many pages instead of one or two.

 

[mrbell321]

If they could do that, they wouldn't be tabbing

I suppose(also, I get the sarcasm)... but there's really not an easy way to create and share sheet music.

Honestly, the type of music you're playing is sort of immaterial to whether your walking bassline works. I tend to go with the chords myself, but that doesn't mean that notes outside the chords won't sound good. For example, take a walking bassline in C...you can outline the chord and play C-E-G-E on top of it over and over, but that can tend to sound static and uninteresting after the first 10 times you do it.

Indeed. Not quite the same, but my group has been playing Proud Mary. Beginning to hate the sound of D2...

You can mix those notes up a little and go C-E-G-E-C-G-E-G, which is a little more interesting, or you can do something like C-D-D#-E-G-F-E-D, which gets even more interesting. True, the notes D, D#, and F aren't part of a C chord, but in context, a walking bassline like that can be quite good. Or you can take a typical "praise bass" walking like C-E-F-F#-G-A-A#-B, which is also very good on top of a C chord despite containing several notes that aren't in a C chord.

Yeah, within the context that spurred my question though, unless I stick to the key-scale, there's absolutely no time for those shenanigans!
well... not for my slow, fumbling fingers anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can do 1/64th notes at 180bpm. I struggle with 1/8ths in that time.

But in general, yeah,

This is not to say that outlining the chords exactly can't work, because there are many examples of where it does work very well. Take the old 60's song "May I" by Bill Deal And The Rhondells. It's set to a ska beat, and the bass spends almost the whole song playing root-V, and it's perfect for that song, and other notes tend to sound bad. But for me, the important thing to remember is that keys and chords are not hard and fast rigid rules that must be applied exactly without wavering. They are merely suggestions, and any notes in the chromatic scale can be applied if you know how to place them in the right spots. That's why books on walking basslines are many pages instead of one or two.

Is it counter-productive to look for rules in punk-related music? :-D


I want to extend my original question:
What do you do, in a jam, when you can't keep up w/ the chord changes?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

But for me, the important thing to remember is that keys and chords are not hard and fast rigid rules that must be applied exactly without wavering.

The thing that is going to make your walking line sound good in any genre you choose to play is being able to HEAR what you want to play clearly in order communicate that on your instrument. To me, there are 2 things that a walking line MUST do and 1 thing that is kind of the icing on the cake. The first two are - it has to communicate the harmony of the composition as you hear it and keep the harmony moving forward. Too much chromaticism or scale movement and you can lose the sound of the harmony, too much use of only chord tones and you get the harmony but you lose forward motion. And trying to follow "rules" about what to use where will be about as effective as trying to have a lively conversation with somebody and concentrating on the rules of grammar and sentence construction instead of trying to communicate meaning and intent. The third thing is being able to hear that line in such a way the you are creating a melody out of quarter notes that support and move the tune forward.

Now as someone who spoke fluent gibberish for a long, long time this is an exercise that helped me start hearing the line I wanted to play internally, you couple this with the work you're doing on scales and arpeggios and ear training, you'll be able to come up with your own lines that are your own personal musical response to any tune that gets called.

The above exercise is a good one, no matter what kind of music you play, I wouldn't bother getting my book unless you really want to start getting into playing jazz.

 

[dtsamples]

What do you do, in a jam, when you can't keep up w/ the chord changes?

It sounds to me like you're looking for a trick or strategy to let you play beyond your level of understanding. The only trick is practicing the basics. There shouldn't really be diatonic chord changes you can't keep up with barring some ridiculous non-traditional structure at a fast pace. If we're talking simple diatonic changes, you should be able to keep up.

So, where to start?

Take the cycle of fourths and memorize the notes in each major triad. You should aim to be able to recite them quickly. This will at least give you the ability to recall the major form of every chord at a fast pace.

CEG
FAC
BbDF
EbGBb
AbCEb
DbFAb
GbBbDb
BD#F#
EG#B
AC#E
DF#A
GBD
CEG

Then you can apply the rules you already know about diatonic harmony to whatever key you're playing in (I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii0). Also, practice saying your scales backwards. It's not just important to be able to go ABC#DEF#G# quickly, you need to also be able to say F#EDC#BAG# or whatever from wherever you are.