Key or Chords in walking bass

[Febs]

What do you do, in a jam, when you can't keep up w/ the chord changes?

Play roots, and then go home and practice.

(I'm not being flippant. I've been known to keep a running list of tunes called at jam sessions that I don't know so that I can practice them at home. Where they're up-tempo tunes, it's useful to use something like irealb or Band-in-a-Box to start at a lower tempo and then gradually work up the tempo. I would also get recordings of those tunes so I could get familiar with the original recordings.)

 

[dtsamples]

And that's the name of that tune.
The thing that is going to make your walking line sound good in any genre you choose to play is being able to HEAR what you want to play clearly in order communicate that on your instrument. To me, there are 2 things that a walking line MUST do and 1 thing that is kind of the icing on the cake. The first two are - it has to communicate the harmony of the composition as you hear it and keep the harmony moving forward. Too much chromaticism or scale movement and you can lose the sound of the harmony, too much use of only chord tones and you get the harmony but you lose forward motion. And trying to follow "rules" about what to use where will be about as effective as trying to have a lively conversation with somebody and concentrating on the rules of grammar and sentence construction instead of trying to communicate meaning and intent. The third thing is being able to hear that line in such a way the you are creating a melody out of quarter notes that support and move the tune forward.

All due respect to a master, but I'm surprised at being so dismissive of the rules of harmony on a rudimentary question. I've always thought that artfully deviating from the rules requires a deep understanding of what those rules are. Lots of people's musical development (including mine) has been greatly stunted at some point or another by the rationalization that rules don't matter as long as you are being creative.

Edit: Perhaps you aren't responding to the OP, but instead to the people who have offered responses to the OP. Certainly being able to hear what you want to play and communicate that artfully with non-chord and scale tones comes from years of practicing the rules and transcribing and analyzing other players' choices.

 

[lfmn16]

You won't have a successful bass line without considering both. Do you want your bass line to suck because you are playing the wrong chords, or because you are playing in the wrong key?

These false dichotamies that show up on TB don't serve anyone. A walking bass line goes from one chord to another. You need to know both the chords and the key in order to get from one chord to another. That does not mean that you can only play scale and/or chord tones, but if you aren't playing scale/chord tones you should know why you aren't and what the function of those none scale/chord tones is.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah, within the context that spurred my question though, unless I stick to the key-scale, there's absolutely no time for those shenanigans!
well... not for my slow, fumbling fingers anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can do 1/64th notes at 180bpm. I struggle with 1/8ths in that time.

This is why you establish a "stock licks" catalog for yourself that you can pull out at a moment's notice. Those two examples are licks I can pull out at a moment's notice. Quite honestly, they're pretty basic as I see it. As you get more into it, you will create your own lines, but until then, study your favorite musicians who create lines in the context of what you'd like to do and steal their licks outright and develop your catalog. It takes time and effort, but if you don't want to be jackin' when you're jammin', you'll do it.

Is it counter-productive to look for rules in punk-related music? :-D

It's counter-productive to be looking to box yourself into boring and static playing no matter what type of music you play. Since you mentioned ska-punk, take a look at Matt Freeman of Rancid, who's one of the more creative of the genre. Study some of his lines, learn his lines, etc.

I want to extend my original question:
What do you do, in a jam, when you can't keep up w/ the chord changes?

You go home, lick your wounds, then you practice your ass off until you can!

 

[JimmyM]

All due respect to a master, but I'm surprised at being so dismissive of the rules of harmony on a rudimentary question. I've always thought that artfully deviating from the rules requires a deep understanding of what those rules are. Lots of people's musical development (including mine) has been greatly stunted at some point or another by the rationalization that rules don't matter as long as you are being creative.

You're comparing throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks to creative "rule-breaking." Do you have to know what notes are in a C chord before you can know what notes are outside of a C chord? Yes you do. So in that respect, yes, you should have an understanding of the "rules." But it's really not as hard as it's being made out to be, and even when you think you're breaking the "rules," you're really not, because more in-depth musical theory explanations exist for anything you'd like to play, no matter how outside the rules you think it is. It's all about putting the work into it and the cumulative effect of studying your chords, arpeggios, scales, and exceptions, as well as studying the music of the masters and seeing how they apply their knowledge as it pertains to real-world musical examples.

 

[mrbell321]

This is why you establish a "stock licks" catalog for yourself that you can pull out at a moment's notice. Those two examples are licks I can pull out at a moment's notice. Quite honestly, they're pretty basic as I see it. As you get more into it, you will create your own lines, but until then, study your favorite musicians who create lines in the context of what you'd like to do and steal their licks outright and develop your catalog. It takes time and effort, but if you don't want to be jackin' when you're jammin', you'll do it.


It's counter-productive to be looking to box yourself into boring and static playing no matter what type of music you play. Since you mentioned ska-punk, take a look at Matt Freeman of Rancid, who's one of the more creative of the genre. Study some of his lines, learn his lines, etc.

Indeed... The solo in to Maxwell Murders is pretty cool when you slow it down to 1/4 speed.

You go home, lick your wounds, then you practice your ass off until you can!

That's what I'm doing now

 

[dtsamples]

You're comparing throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks to creative "rule-breaking." Do you have to know what notes are in a C chord before you can know what notes are outside of a C chord? Yes you do. So in that respect, yes, you should have an understanding of the "rules." But it's really not as hard as it's being made out to be, and even when you think you're breaking the "rules," you're really not, because more in-depth musical theory explanations exist for anything you'd like to play, no matter how outside the rules you think it is. It's all about putting the work into it and the cumulative effect of studying your chords, arpeggios, scales, and exceptions, as well as studying the music of the masters and seeing how they apply their knowledge as it pertains to real-world musical examples.

I'm not sure I understand your criticism. The guy is asking about keeping up with fast chord changes and the answer is unequivocally that he needs to know what the chords are and what notes are in them. Ed gave a nice answer about playing with your ears and knowing how to play what you feel, but it was pretty abstract. The practical advice is know the chords and what notes are in them. I'm not trying to make it out to be difficult, but sounded to me like the OP wanted a practical answer to a dilemma he was having, not necessarily a discourse on what makes a great walking bassline from one of the celebrated pedagogical masters on the subject.

Re-reading Ed's post, I'll repeal my criticism about it being abstract, as he does link to a nice thread on knowing a tune inside and out. I do however think it is a pretty broad reply to his initial post.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

All due respect to a master, but I'm surprised at being so dismissive of the rules of harmony on a rudimentary question. I've always thought that artfully deviating from the rules requires a deep understanding of what those rules are. Lots of people's musical development (including mine) has been greatly stunted at some point or another by the rationalization that rules don't matter as long as you are being creative.

Edit: Perhaps you aren't responding to the OP, but instead to the people who have offered responses to the OP. Certainly being able to hear what you want to play and communicate that artfully with non-chord and scale tones comes from years of practicing the rules and transcribing and analyzing other players' choices.

.

First - I'm not a "master", I'm just trying to make sense on the stand like everybody else.

Second -did you look at the link? If not, I think that doing so will answer a lot of your issues. But generally - I'm not "dismissive" of the harmony, but in the music I play it's really much more of a loose "framework" than hard and fast "rule". Much more important, to me, is supporting the melody and, as countless reharmonizations have pointed out, harmony is malleable. The only real "rule" is does it sound good? Any musical analysis about anything exists to understand why something sounds good. More things can sound good, the deeper and more nuanced your ear becomes. That's true of more than music. As to your perception of my "rationalization", I think you're missing the point. There's a great Frank Foster story - he's doing a JazzMobile jam session and somebody gets on the stand and just starts playing gibberish. Frank steps up and says "What the hell are you doing?" Cat says "I'm playing what I hear" Frank says "Well, hear something in Bb **********!"
The act of NOT playing a note that you don't actually hear is hard for us to do. We all end up playing stuff because it fits a pattern or we heard somebody else do it or because the rule says it's supposed to work, all of that gets in the way of actually making music. What stunted my musical development was thinking that there was always some other scale, some other altered chord, some other vocabulary that I didn't have that was keeping me from being able to sound like all those players whose records I had. But that's not it. Hearing with clarity, with enough clarity that you can sing every note in a line you want to play is not easy. But that's what it takes, that's what music is -sounds in the air. If you want those sounds to make sense to someone else, they have to make sense to you first.

But yes, all of my posts in this thread were in reply to the responses and suggestions I read. In my opinion they point to some dead ends, dead ends that I hit at some point in time on my own journey. Anyone and everyone is more than welcome to ignore my advice.

As far as the original post/poll, I don't "think" any of those things. I just try to hear what's going on.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm not sure I understand your criticism. The guy is asking about keeping up with fast chord changes and the answer is unequivocally that he needs to know what the chords are and what notes are in them. Ed gave a nice answer about playing with your ears and knowing how to play what you feel, but it was pretty abstract. The practical advice is know the chords and what notes are in them. I'm not trying to make it out to be difficult, but sounded to me like the OP wanted a practical answer to a dilemma he was having, not necessarily a discourse on what makes a great walking bassline from one of the celebrated pedagogical masters on the subject.

Absolutely you need to know the chords and what notes are in them. But that doesn't mean you have to play ONLY those notes in a jam, and quite honestly, if you're playing with more experienced musicians and using only those notes, they're either going to stop you and give an impromptu music lesson or they're going to ask you to go home and come back when you can hang. Now maybe if you're playing in a band where the only want you to play roots or chord tones at all times, you'll be able to hang, but the OP specifically asked about walking bass lines, which is not just about playing root-3-5 over and over, and it takes some work on the front end to be able to apply the more creative aspects of walking bass lines to a jam.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm just trying to make sense on the stand like everybody else...

I have memorized your response to my lame questions about a very similar subject:

"...let your ear guide your line, that way the notes you play not only relate to your immediate aural environment, they relate to each other in a way that intellectually choosing "chord tone, scale tone, tension note, chromatic approach note" etc. can never approximate."

 

[dtsamples]

.

First - I'm not a "master", I'm just trying to make sense on the stand like everybody else.

Second -did you look at the link? If not, I think that doing so will answer a lot of your issues. But generally - I'm not "dismissive" of the harmony, but in the music I play it's really much more of a loose "framework" than hard and fast "rule". Much more important, to me, is supporting the melody and, as countless reharmonizations have pointed out, harmony is malleable. The only real "rule" is does it sound good? Any musical analysis about anything exists to understand why something sounds good. More things can sound good, the deeper and more nuanced your ear becomes. That's true of more than music. As to your perception of my "rationalization", I think you're missing the point. There's a great Frank Foster story - he's doing a JazzMobile jam session and somebody gets on the stand and just starts playing gibberish. Frank steps up and says "What the hell are you doing?" Cat says "I'm playing what I hear" Frank says "Well, hear something in Bb mothershager!"
The act of NOT playing a note that you don't actually hear is hard for us to do. We all end up playing stuff because it fits a pattern or we heard somebody else do it or because the rule says it's supposed to work, all of that gets in the way of actually making music. What stunted my musical development was thinking that there was always some other scale, some other altered chord, some other vocabulary that I didn't have that was keeping me from being able to sound like all those players whose records I had. But that's not it. Hearing with clarity, with enough clarity that you can sing every note in a line you want to play is not easy. But that's what it takes, that's what music is -sounds in the air. If you want those sounds to make sense to someone else, they have to make sense to you first.

But yes, all of my posts in this thread were in reply to the responses and suggestions I read. In my opinion they point to some dead ends, dead ends that I hit at some point in time on my own journey. Anyone and everyone is more than welcome to ignore my advice.

As far as the original post/poll, I don't "think" any of those things. I just try to hear what's going on.

Thanks for clarifying. I've certainly seen that link before and have gleaned a lot from it. Putting it in to practice sure takes a lot more time than reading it! Sometimes, people need to be asking the right questions before they can understand the right answers. There's not doubting that your take is correct, there is much more to playing well than regurgitating notes that are part of the chord or key. But it might be a disservice to not answer a direct question directly, especially since direct questions can lead down a path to grasping your answer with much more understanding. At any rate, you have now done that and have provided some good context, and I thank you for it.

 

[dtsamples]

Absolutely you need to know the chords and what notes are in them. But that doesn't mean you have to play ONLY those notes in a jam, and quite honestly, if you're playing with more experienced musicians and using only those notes, they're either going to stop you and give an impromptu music lesson or they're going to ask you to go home and come back when you can hang. Now maybe if you're playing in a band where the only want you to play roots or chord tones at all times, you'll be able to hang, but the OP specifically asked about walking bass lines, which is not just about playing root-3-5 over and over, and it takes some work on the front end to be able to apply the more creative aspects of walking bass lines to a jam.

Man, that is a straw man. At no point did I ever suggest that you had to play only chord tones in a jam. And the OP did say walking bass, but then he asked a question that had nothing to do with walking lines. He asked whether it was important to pay attention to the chords in ska music. But your underhanded insult was noted, I'll be careful not to play just chord tones on the stand lest someone feel the need to give me an impromptu lesson.

 

[JimmyM]

Man, that is a straw man. At no point did I ever suggest that you had to play only chord tones in a jam. And the OP did say walking bass, but then he asked a question that had nothing to do with walking lines. He asked whether it was important to pay attention to the chords in ska music. But your underhanded insult was noted, I'll be careful not to play just chord tones on the stand lest someone feel the need to give me an impromptu lesson.

Sheesh! What underhanded insult? If you took that as an insult, I'd say you were looking to be insulted, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

BTW, some of the best advice about music I ever got came from those impromptu lessons, so don't knock it.

 

[dtsamples]

Lol, ok just seemed a little directed at me, but I'll take your word for it. Regardless, this topic is beat dead at this point. OP, sorry if I was off base, its a dynamic question you asked about. When you get into more complex harmony, a lot of the time each chord can dictate an entire scale, that's why I think it's less important to concern yourself with the key of a song than the chords, but as others have stated, that will only give you a starting point, it won't allow you to play with forward intention.

 

[Frenchy-Lefty]

To answer the OP second question "what do you do when you can't keep up with the chords changes..." my smart ass but realistic answer would be "work harder until you can do it".
Practice at slower tempo if you can

 

[mrbell321]

I'm not sure I can trust a lefty...

...but seriously, smart-ass answers are often correct.
...irritating, but correct.

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

Did you do that google search? Please do before you post anything else. He litteraly wrote the book on this subject.

1) no

2) why would I? I'm not asking for help with the subject

3) irrelevant to the utter unhelpfulness of his post

 

[paulears]

I can read music. I play what somebody else wrote down. Sometimes the person who wrote the notes down is not a bass player and produced dull and unexciting stuff, often with covers stuff, vaguely like the real thing but missing the vitals. The times I hear the music, and my finger play the right, and hopefully appropriate notes for the musical style. Sometimes I know the song really well and memory works. Other times, I'll have to make up the baseline because I've never heard the song before. The key is immaterial. I play five string so if the song is in Eb it doesn't matter. Indeed many times I'm playing away and somebody in the rehearsal calls a stop and says "NO - that's an Eb then D" That is when my brain kicks in and I pay attention to the note. Very often I couldn't even tell you what key I'm in - with a song I know, I've had to look at my left hand and see the note I am fretting and then work out what the key is.

I don't think keys, or chords - or at least, I don't think I do. My fingers just play what my brain says. I don't think about modes either, it's an instinctive thing and often if another bass player asks me what I played, I have no idea - it's just not in memory as a series of notes, just a song? It never occurred to me people analyse all these things and learn that way? Walking baselines always intrigue me. They seem to just emerge without me thinking. I play in a tribute band and we all play and sing - often lead lines for a few bars, then we sit back and the next line maybe BVs. Four part harmony, and part of the song learning process is to learn the bass line, then concentrate on the singing with the fingers playing automatically. I cannot think both at the same time. In some songs a rock and roll-ish walking baseline is played with unusual intervals in the sequence, so the vocals get supported. It's quite clever. Sometimes with four voices, two will be on the same note an octave apart, and the missing note features in the bass. This makes the walking baseline jump to non-instinctive notes, ones that as a bass player you wouldn't have chosen. Bass lines often go up chromatically, as the BVs decent through a different interval sequence. Occasionally the band leader changes an intro if we perhaps need to start a medley one song in. All I really need is the first note to play. Bb - for example. I don't need more of a clue than that. I don't even need the key - just the note. This seems to trigger the memory playout. I read, and re-read the first few posts and lost the plot. I just can't think like that in performance mode. I don't think I have ever analysed a baseline like that, ever! If I were a bass teacher, then perhaps I would need to know the construction in that manner to be able to comment on it, but the feel, the style and genre linked to the memory work for me. Look at the start of the Beatles Lady Madonna. It's not just a sequence of notes it's a very simple two finger fingering pattern that sounds really neat and has a kind of groove. As the song progresses, it then reverses and descends in a rather predictable way. No doubt somebody could write a university thesis on how this musically works, but does it matter? You need to play it - so listen and then play it. Why waste time analysing and breaking it down? Writing down the notes as dots on a page does not make this song sound right? If you had never heard the song, I doubt the dots would sound good at all until you got to crazy hemi demi semi quavers (look it up), which I doubt few could play. Hear it once and away you go.

I don't know HOW I play bass. It just happens, and I really have no interest in how my brain works my fingers.

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

The thing that is going to make your walking line sound good in any genre you choose to play is being able to HEAR what you want to play clearly in order communicate that on your instrument. To me, there are 2 things that a walking line MUST do and 1 thing that is kind of the icing on the cake. The first two are - it has to communicate the harmony of the composition as you hear it and keep the harmony moving forward. Too much chromaticism or scale movement and you can lose the sound of the harmony, too much use of only chord tones and you get the harmony but you lose forward motion. And trying to follow "rules" about what to use where will be about as effective as trying to have a lively conversation with somebody and concentrating on the rules of grammar and sentence construction instead of trying to communicate meaning and intent. The third thing is being able to hear that line in such a way the you are creating a melody out of quarter notes that support and move the tune forward.

Now as someone who spoke fluent gibberish for a long, long time this is an exercise that helped me start hearing the line I wanted to play internally, you couple this with the work you're doing on scales and arpeggios and ear training, you'll be able to come up with your own lines that are your own personal musical response to any tune that gets called.

The above exercise is a good one, no matter what kind of music you play, I wouldn't bother getting my book unless you really want to start getting into playing jazz.

This strikes me as solid, invaluable advice. Information regarding scales and chords is readily available to everyone - applying that information to a bassline in a way that is both musical and creative is a trick. The simile with conversation is fantastic.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

.

I don't know HOW I play bass. It just happens, and I really have no interest in how my brain works my fingers.

"Speaking of Jazz" by Ed Byrne

It’s often easier for the musically illiterate to learn by ear
than it is for the educated.

"The talented and illiterate often develop the essential memory skills much
faster than the literate, since the former have gotten into a habit of relying on
their ears out of necessity. Intellectual skills, although helpful in many ways,
are not essential to an extemporaneous art form such as jazz. Many masters
have been musically illiterate. Moreover, no matter how intellectual and
literate one becomes, one still needs to ultimately lose such thinking in order to
tap into the most direct and spontaneous forms of improvisation. Therefore,
internalize progressions by singing them in the form of arpeggios through the
entire form, and sing the guide tone lines and root progressions. First you need
to be able to sing arpeggios of each and every chord separately: the four triad
types, the twelve seventh chords, and the various ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth
chords. The more you develop and rely upon your tonal memory, the less you
will need to intellectualize and analyze: You just know."
http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads/20081111092222_EdByrne.pdf