Kick Drum feedback - phase inverter?

[dcarwin]

We mic the kick and run it through a rig to make it louder. It feeds back too easily (drummer will not mute the kick - religious issue). We waste time playing with the knobs trying to get the kick loud enough for him and not feeding back.

So I happened across this article and now I have some hope.

Phase inversion

Of course our cheap-ass PA and my donated bass rig/subwoofer don't have phase switches.

Will this work?

http://www.amazon.com/Neutrik-Na3fmx-Pole-Phase-Inverter/dp/B000LAUYUA/


If not, what can I get to invert the phase on the kick signal?

Thanks!

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

well yes, polarity can help with the phase issue, but if you have a sweepable EQ, you should play with the settings to find the offending frequency and notch it out.
Also play with mic placement, too far in or out from the head and it will feedback.
Also mic selection is super important. an SM57 goes a long way compared to a D112 with too much bottom or something when playing live.

 

[Timi]

I can't imagine it doing much. Notch out the offending frequency and/or use a noisegate.

 

[dcarwin]

Feedback is low. Roll off the low, drummer complains. Svt 4 eq isn't very fine grained.

Thanks though for the responses.

 

[silky smoove]

If he complains, tell him to buy his own drum PA rather than using a bass rig.

 

[dcarwin]

If he complains, tell him to buy his own drum PA rather than using a bass rig.

He's not rich. He's shopping for used bass cabs now, because he sees me cringe when he cranks up the bridged 4 pro into the 4 ohm acme. He's asking me what kind of bad cab he should buy, and he's looking in the $200-$300 range. He means well, he just craves that high impact sub bass.

 

[wideload]

Where is the cab in relation to the mike? Is it out front for the audience, or backline as a monitor and butt-rumbler? Try altering the angle and/or location of the speaker, along with EQ and volume adjustments. AND WEAR EAR PROTECTION. You are not dealing with a logical being.

 

[Dave Martin]

Phase inversion isn't really going to work well at eliminating feedback from the bass drum - especially if the issue is resonance from the drum itself. Respectfully, tell your drummer to look into some other religion...

 

[seamonkey]

Use a trigger instead

 

[funnyfingers]

If the feedback is from all the other instruments, a noise gate might help.

 

[BurningSkies]

If the feedback is from all the other instruments, a noise gate might help.

I would suggest this anyway, since the mic I'm sure picks up a ton of other bleed. For recording purposes, I always gate the Kick anyway, and you can also tighten up the sound if as you say he doesn't 'mute' his kick.

 

[LowG]

he just craves that high impact sub bass.

A trigger, as suggested. That way he can have whatever sound he wants. Unless any of you are extremely good engineers with specialized tools, a mic on a bass drum will just sound like what you are already hearing. Real drums don't naturally sound like high impact sub low cannons (unless a talented engineer is at the helm). Use a trigger if you have to have that sound.

 

[dcarwin]

Any pointers to recommend trigger systems?

 

[seamonkey]

Ddrum Acoustic Pro, or DRT trigger for bass drum
Alesis Trigger/IO trigger to midi interface to the PC

 

[paulears]

If a kick drum feeds back, then my God it must be loud - OR - has the wrong/inappropriate mic placement or mic type. Kick drum internal volume is so loud that if it feeds back this easily, something is wrong.

 

[lowfreq33]

If a kick drum feeds back, then my God it must be loud - OR - has the wrong/inappropriate mic placement or mic type. Kick drum internal volume is so loud that if it feeds back this easily, something is wrong.

Pretty much.

 

[Matthijs]

A trigger would be a foolproof option. But, If it is the bassdrum and mic themselves feeding back I would not discount a phase inverter. It can help a lot in elliminating feedback for a loudly amlified double bass. The main trick is in the placement of the cab though. Is it also a religious issue for him to hear all of that deep bass himself? Or is he content with it reaching the audience?

 

[seamonkey]

Then there's the Buttkicker drum thrones.
Let's the drummer feel the bass drum in their bones. They will play quieter if crank up the bass felt in the throne. Sometimes playing quieter can let them do more with their playing.

Even for bass players, there's platforms that vibrate so you can feel the bass even at low acoustic volumes.
It's a good physical effect for the player.

BTW - caught a view of the TV Show "The Voice", great singing talent there. Triggered Pearl drums, and the Grand Piano is a Roland electric fitted to look like a grand. Both sound great on my theater sound system. I do wonder how that show sounds live as no FOH is visible. Might be a line array out of camera view.

 

[dcarwin]

A trigger would be a foolproof option. But, If it is the bassdrum and mic themselves feeding back I would not discount a phase inverter. It can help a lot in elliminating feedback for a loudly amlified double bass. The main trick is in the placement of the cab though. Is it also a religious issue for him to hear all of that deep bass himself? Or is he content with it reaching the audience?

This is in the studio right now, so it's about him hearing himself. Hopefully my local GC has an inverter in stock. Thanks everyone.

 

[Matthijs]

This is in the studio right now, so it's about him hearing himself. Hopefully my local GC has an inverter in stock. Thanks everyone.

In that case headpones would be your obvious solution, preferably the insulating kind