Kiesel's lack of bass evolution

[dkelley]

With all their models and options it's frustrating they don't offer more scale lengths. Pretty much 34" only except for the Vader at 30.

That's one of the things I love about them.

Their engineers didn't jump on the "35 scale is critical" bandwagon. What really makes me laugh about that is how Carvin has proven that 30" B strings sound excellent when done properly in very high quality. And adding one whole inch to a regular scale bass (to make it 35") is so small a difference as to be negligible in tone improvements, while being quite noticeable in playing difficulty.

I love that I can buy any carvin 5 or 6 string bass and feel instantly at home like I'm playing a fender precision or jazz bass from the 60s, while enjoying the greatest technology and build quality available from modern advances, in my own custom ordered finishes/feature sets.

 

[Rib 13]

Not obvious at all. I prefer to take people's words at face value. I certainly prefer others give me that due credit when reading my words.

If that was intended to be a parody, it was lacking in exaggeration and anything remotely sarcastic to tip off the readers.

So I actually would think it's legit.

It is basically this thread
Fender's lack of bass evolution | TalkBass.com

I noticed it right away because I peruse the different topics.......

 

[dkelley]

Your recollection and opinion of pre-Kiesel instruments differs from mine. That's fine. I like the Kiesel instruments that are coming out now since they've shed the baggage that was holding the guitar / bass segment back.

They actually stepped up their game dramatically about 2 decades ago or so, and nothing in "quality" improved or changed since then, since it was already matching that of the best in the industry by that point. The irony with your point about baggage, which yes likely is one other benefit to the name change, is that people are now seeing these as newly improved instruments with open minds and realizing how great they are, when in fact they were making the exact same instruments for at least 20 years if not longer in some cases.

So, to speak of facts and evidence, what sort of stuff did you dislike in the quality of "carvin" branded keisel instruments that has changed in the same "keisel" branded instruments?

I would venture to guess the tone - as their much older bass pickups, and older yet preamps, tended to be pretty upper mid heavy much of the time, which wasn't everyone's idea of a great bass tone. That was when "buy a carvin, replace the electronics" became a common recommendation to get the best instrument and then electronics to match.

However, for myself, I can start by saying the woods have always been super high quality in every Carvin I've played. Electronics were great for the past 15 years (when the icon came out) - (the 99 series pickups are excellent and newer pickups are even more interesting), preamps on my icons are equal to the best stock preamps I've ever used, again a 15 year old design. Fit and finish is tied with the best built instruments I've ever owned (Alembic and Warwick). Fretwork is literally textbook perfect on every Carvin I've ever played. Bridges are excellent designs with immense flexibility yet rock solid stability.

Personally I'm not basing this on memory, I'm basing it on having a Carvin bass here beside me (see it's in my profile pic, fretless icon 5). The Keisel Icon 5 fretted bass I borrowed was months ago, but recent enough to realize it was EXACTLY the same instrument. Having borrowed it, I now understand that there is no reason to ever sell my Carvin, there's nothing to be improved upon.

I DO like the newer models though, specially some of the headless ones.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

They actually stepped up their game dramatically about 2 decades ago or so, and nothing in "quality" improved or changed since then, since it was already matching that of the best in the industry by that point. The irony with your point about baggage, which yes likely is one other benefit to the name change, is that people are now seeing these as newly improved instruments with open minds and realizing how great they are, when in fact they were making the exact same instruments for at least 20 years if not longer in some cases.

So, to speak of facts and evidence, what sort of stuff did you dislike in the quality of "carvin" branded keisel instruments that has changed in the same "keisel" branded instruments?

I would venture to guess the tone - as their much older bass pickups, and older yet preamps, tended to be pretty upper mid heavy much of the time, which wasn't everyone's idea of a great bass tone. That was when "buy a carvin, replace the electronics" became a common recommendation to get the best instrument and then electronics to match.

However, for myself, I can start by saying the woods have always been super high quality in every Carvin I've played. Electronics were great for the past 15 years (when the icon came out) - (the 99 series pickups are excellent and newer pickups are even more interesting), preamps on my icons are equal to the best stock preamps I've ever used, again a 15 year old design. Fit and finish is tied with the best built instruments I've ever owned (Alembic and Warwick). Fretwork is literally textbook perfect on every Carvin I've ever played. Bridges are excellent designs with immense flexibility yet rock solid stability.

Personally I'm not basing this on memory, I'm basing it on having a Carvin bass here beside me (see it's in my profile pic, fretless icon 5). The Keisel Icon 5 fretted bass I borrowed was months ago, but recent enough to realize it was EXACTLY the same instrument. Having borrowed it, I now understand that there is no reason to ever sell my Carvin, there's nothing to be improved upon.

I DO like the newer models though, specially some of the headless ones.

Maybe the lesser instruments made it to the east coast, again, your experiences are different than mine. That's great. Carry on.

 

[dkelley]

Maybe the lesser instruments made it to the east coast, again, your experiences are different than mine. That's great. Carry on.

Fair enough. But, once again, lesser in what way? I'm interested to know what to watch out for, as always. I could have been very lucky in the ones I found. I mentioned the older models (2000ish and before) having less than amazing low end in the tone. That could be part of it, although I wouldn't deem that a quality problem. Neck issues? finish problems? I'm honestly interested and won't argue with your findings.

 

[coyote1]

They actually stepped up their game dramatically

We’ve upped our game.
Now up yours.

 

[groooooove]

i hate how much i don't jive with with kiesel does.

sitting next to my old carvin right now... what they did 10-20 years ago was just amazing.

I don't have any complaints about kiesel quality, but the magic just isin't there anymore (for me personally)

oh well. if they make any models i like i'd definitely buy one.

I agree with others- they are doing more sales than ever before, so good for them! I just wish I could be one of those sales.

 

[dkelley]

We’ve upped our game.
Now up yours.

I don't get it. We who? I'm one of you...

sorry LoL, did I miss something?

 

[Hurricane Jimmie]

I'm sure that as a USA guitar and bass manufacturer, they are struggling. Over the years, Carvin/Kiesel has made some very, very over-looked instruments! Of VERY HIGH quality!

I am lucky enough to own a 1983 LB50, an 1987 koa 20 fret LB90, an LB90 24 fret, fretless and an XB75P 35.25 scale 5 string. Fantastic basses!

View attachment 4084322View attachment 4084323View attachment 4084324View attachment 4084325

Had a Carvin LB that I bought new in 1981...same as your top picture. Kept it till last year. Played way above its price range.

 

[brianrost]

Loving this...didn't anybody get the joke yet?

 

[fivestringgecko]

Well, glad you know what I'm thinking. Carvin on the headstock is a different company than Kiesel on the headstock, but there is an oddity in overlap that they were putting Carvin decals on some Kiesel instruments at the customer's request.

I still don't think I'm quite getting you actually... Carvin Audio and Carvin Instruments were still separate divisions, and the audio side never made instruments. Carvin and Kiesel "on the headstock" are indeed the same company, just with some naming struggles. I have four dating back to 2014 (two Carvins and two Kiesels), and talked to the same customer service rep for all four of them. And according to Jeff about how long people have worked there, probably some of the same people building them. I wish I could find the livestream where Jeff talked about the differences... he explains the whole mess much better than I do.

From someone who plays funk and doesn't get into to much modern music, I love my Kiesels. Best of both worlds for me. Modern stylings, incredibly comfortable, lightweight, Hipshot hardware and rock stable necks. I've fallen in love with multiscale. Even for standard tuning.

View attachment 4085237 View attachment 4085238

I've been SO curious about multi-scale for a while now! Sounds like we come from similar music backgrounds, so maybe I should try out a multi-scale sooner rather than later.

5sg.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I still don't think I'm quite getting you actually... Carvin Audio and Carvin Instruments were still separate divisions, and the audio side never made instruments. Carvin and Kiesel "on the headstock" are indeed the same company, just with some naming struggles. I have four dating back to 2014 (two Carvins and two Kiesels), and talked to the same customer service rep for all four of them. And according to Jeff about how long people have worked there, probably some of the same people building them. I wish I could find the livestream where Jeff talked about the differences... he explains the whole mess much better than I do.

The company split into two separate entities in 2015. I’ve been following Carvin since at least 1986 and I’m well aware of Carvin versus Kiesel. You would receive the Carvin catalog that had guitars, basses, amps and PA gear in it with one phone number to call. They were in one building. Interestingly the Kiesel Carvin Guitars Facebook page dropped the name Carvin a few weeks ago and is now only Kiesel Guitars.

Kiesel Guitars filed for incorporation on 01/07/2015 and they can be found here:



Carvin Corporation's trail of paperwork is more difficult because it predated the web, but they can currently be located at this location, mail box 383:

 

[SgtHulka]

I just think they all look bad... I have nothing to say about their playability I just don't like their looks. The only bass I like is the original LB series. They all look clunky and awkward. No modern design in them what so ever. And being totally serious, the back/bottom part of the Vader bass looks like a pair of testicles if the bass is standing upright.

 

[luciens]

I was a longtime Carvin fan and, until last year, I had 3 Carvins: a Bunny Brunel 4 and 6 (both unlined FL) and a Brian Bromberg 5 string "S" model (which was quickly discontinued for no apparent reason). It's not an exaggeration to say that they were very nearly boutique-level quality. The hardware was the more normal off-the-shelf stuff from Hipshot, etc., but the woodworking and finish was just absolutely exceptional. I couldn't believe how well made they were for what I paid for them.

As for the reputation of the electronics, I don't recall that being an issue with mine. The Bunny Brunel in particular was an amazing sounding bass. The Bromberg is the most ergonomic bass ever made in my experience.

The only reason I don't still have them was they were forcibly taken from me last summer and never recovered. But that's life.

As for Kiesel, I don't see anything that indicates their general quality standards have changed, and in fact they're probably even more carefully made instruments now. Jeff Kiesel has intentionally slowed down the production numbers so they can remain meticulous in their manufacturing and he's vehemently against making stock basses for resale at other outlets, etc. He tells them to leave the booth whenever they try to chat him up at NAMM even.

So he's clearly carrying on the same commitments as his dad did and the rest before him, if you ask me.

In saying that, the only bass in their current lineup I'm still interested in is the Bromberg. I'm not a huge fan of the rest of the lineup, but that's more just a personal preference type thing and no reflection on what I think of their instruments. I'm not anti-headless by any means, I just haven't been able to try one out to see if it doesn't have some of the ergonomic problems I've encountered with headlesses in the past.

So I would worry at all about Kiesel and I'd do another in a heartbeat if I was jonesing for say another Bromberg again, and of course had the spare cash to order one.

L

 

[India_Sierra]

I just think they all look bad... I have nothing to say about their playability I just don't like their looks. The only bass I like is the original LB series. They all look clunky and awkward. No modern design in them what so ever. And being totally serious, the back/bottom part of the Vader bass looks like a pair of testicles if the bass is standing upright.

I have to say that I feel the same. The LG was a really elegant looking bass that could sound great. I remember having an old Ed Friedland DVD where he was playing a purple LG or BB and you could see and hear that it was a good instrument. The old Bunny Brunel shape was great too. I love the Brian Bromberg shape too but for me, the ultimate iteration of that design was the Peavey B-Quad.

The newer designs don't do much for me. The Icon I find fairly generic. The headless models like the Vader and Zeus are just scaled up versions of the guitar models, but whereas I find the Vader and Zeus to be good looking guitars, that 'photocopier +40%' scaling to make them basses doesn't work for me. That said, Kiesel seem to be so busy building guitars that I doubt they have the urge or the capacity to really step up their bass game.

Kiesel have made a number of questionable decisions over recent years. I gather that they no longer offer the BB shape at all, and they recently discontinued the original Holdsworth shape too, so no more H1 or Fatboy models. And that is without even mentioning how they misrepresented that 'robbery' a couple of years ago.

 

[India_Sierra]

Sorry, in my post I referred to the LB bass as the LG.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Yeah...if they would only build a headless, 36" scale, fanned fret, 12 string bass with an aluminum neck I'd be all over it.

The gauntlet has been thrown down!

 

[coyote1]

i hate how much i don't jive with with kiesel does.

sitting next to my old carvin right now... what they did 10-20 years ago was just amazing.

I don't have any complaints about kiesel quality, but the magic just isin't there anymore (for me personally)

oh well. if they make any models i like i'd definitely buy one.

I agree with others- they are doing more sales than ever before, so good for them! I just wish I could be one of those sales.

I’ve never been able to ‘get’ that kind of brand loyalty. As long as someone is making something that appeals to me at a price point I can live with, what do I care whether brand XYZ no longer does so? Certainly, the builders in search of $$$ who change their products in a way you don’t like can be said to not have loyalty.....

 

[Watchootognbout]

And being totally serious, the back/bottom part of the Vader bass looks like a pair of testicles if the bass is standing upright.

 

[groooooove]

I’ve never been able to ‘get’ that kind of brand loyalty. As long as someone is making something that appeals to me at a price point I can live with, what do I care whether brand XYZ no longer does so? Certainly, the builders in search of $$$ who change their products in a way you don’t like can be said to not have loyalty.....

well, its not really brand loyalty. i guess in a way it is... but to me it's the same as a local diner that was amazing under the old owners 10 years ago, but the food isin't good anymore... no brand loyalty, man I just miss how it used to be!