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Kiesel's lack of bass evolution
- Thread starter tercesyrev
- Start date
I only meant the back if you were looking at it sideways... You don't see the dangling outline?
I get that. The best restaurant in my area 15 years ago sold out, and a bank now stands there.
I’ve heard some describe the bottom of the Marleaux Consat as looking like, well... a woman’s bottom
What another headless bolt on with a different body?. I'm sure the previously retired SB model now with no headstock is taking the world by storm. Look at Ibanez ... by far the MOST willing to try something different, experimenting with new models and configurations. The electronics / pups they put in their premium lines are in a different league than Kiesel's "lackluster" pick ups and preamp. My goodness, compare the Ibanez EHB1506MS with an equivalently equipped Kiesel (except the Nordstrand pups and 9pc neck standard on the Ibby, not available on the Kiesel). The Ibanez is almost $1000 less. How about a new through neck design? Or at least upgrade the aging Icon or LB series for criminy sake. How about better pick ups / pre amps?. Their pricing is getting absurd. How about bringing them down to compensate for their horrible resale value?
Absolutely. If you consider them a continuation of Carvin I'd argue they've evolved their instruments too much. Or at least too often.
They've followed every trend in the industry. Every type of neck attachment, laminate necks, stereo pickups, 5 and 6 string versions of every model, phase switches, headless, different scale lengths, early adoption of koa, brass everything in the 80's, pointy bodies and doublenecks, etc. So much so that there really isn't a design identity for the brand in the mind of consumers.
Um.... well.....
1) Can you tell Ibanez what color, hardware, and pickup configuration you want? Nope.
2) Is your Ibanez made to order in the USA? Nope.
3) I never said Kiesel was THE MOST willing to try new things. But they're in the top 10 for sure.
I'm a fan of both. I have made a lot of money with both Ibanez and Carvin basses strapped around my neck. This is really nothing worth getting all bent out of shape about.
The owner is the one I've read about around here being a huge jerk, right? Not stirring the pot just confirming as I have a very negative association with them after reading many stories about Jeff. Same company?
Thanks for posting. Exactly why Kiesel will never grace my music room (bass or guitar). I've been a member over at TGP for a while and I've seen plenty of ugly Kiesel stuff over there too.
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I had honestly liked their guitars. Was leaning towards getting one. After following their Facebook page and seeing a bunch of his live streams, I decided I didn't want to buy a guitar from him.
I don't want to make this a bash fest I know a lot of people love their stuff. They have a cool business model and they seem to have great prices for a custom product.
Well you have to keep things in perspective too. Jeff Kiesel has a difficult business model - it's not just one guy complaining that a fingerboard is a little too light in color; it's 50000 guys calling him up every day demanding this, that and, why can't you do this or that and why will it cost me another $300, and on and on for 20 minutes on the phone, and then still not buying a bass or guitar from him and he doesn't earn a dime.
That's not to take away from his real customers who do buy instruments, but for every one of those, he has to deal with 100's or probably 1000's of tire kickers wasting his and his company's time at his own expense.
So I'd be pretty volatile too and not surprised if it might once in a while unintentionally spill over onto an actual customer. IIRC, JK did apologize for the incident linked above and did his best to make it right.
In other words, I wouldn't worry about Kiesel's integrity. Everyone has a bad day every now and then, especially in times like these.
In saying that, I had 3 Carvins up until about a year ago and the only reason I haven't gotten another one (under the Kiesel name) is they quit making the Bunny Brunel, which was my favorite Carvin/Kiesel. The Brian Bromberg is the most ergonomic, well designed bass in history and I had a 5 string model, but I had to come to terms with the fact that I didn't quite like the way it sounded.
Other than that, I'd get another one in a heartbeat, if they brought back the Bunny Brunel, or made an equivalent model...
L
That's not to take away from his real customers who do buy instruments, but for every one of those, he has to deal with 100's or probably 1000's of tire kickers wasting his and his company's time at his own expense.
So I'd be pretty volatile too and not surprised if it might once in a while unintentionally spill over onto an actual customer. IIRC, JK did apologize for the incident linked above and did his best to make it right.
In other words, I wouldn't worry about Kiesel's integrity. Everyone has a bad day every now and then, especially in times like these.
In saying that, I had 3 Carvins up until about a year ago and the only reason I haven't gotten another one (under the Kiesel name) is they quit making the Bunny Brunel, which was my favorite Carvin/Kiesel. The Brian Bromberg is the most ergonomic, well designed bass in history and I had a 5 string model, but I had to come to terms with the fact that I didn't quite like the way it sounded.
Other than that, I'd get another one in a heartbeat, if they brought back the Bunny Brunel, or made an equivalent model...
L
Sure, but this is why you have to put together an consistent and fair business model for returns. It seems like some of these are kind of gross violations of that principle. If you bought a bass with a broken freboard wouldn't you expect it to be fixed in some permanent manner or simply replaced? I would think especially If I had bought 30 instruments from the company, and then get chastised by the owner on the internet, telling me that I'm whining. I get that he went to his FB page and issued a public apology, but even that just shows that the current business model is a failure.Well you have to keep things in perspective too. Jeff Kiesel has a difficult business model - it's not just one guy complaining that a fingerboard is a little too light in color; it's 50000 guys calling him up every day demanding this, that and, why can't you do this or that and why will it cost me another $300, and on and on for 20 minutes on the phone, and then still not buying a bass or guitar from him and he doesn't earn a dime.
That's not to take away from his real customers who do buy instruments, but for every one of those, he has to deal with 100's or probably 1000's of tire kickers wasting his and his company's time at his own expense.
So I'd be pretty volatile too and not surprised if it might once in a while unintentionally spill over onto an actual customer. IIRC, JK did apologize for the incident linked above and did his best to make it right.
In other words, I wouldn't worry about Kiesel's integrity. Everyone has a bad day every now and then, especially in times like these.
In saying that, I had 3 Carvins up until about a year ago and the only reason I haven't gotten another one (under the Kiesel name) is they quit making the Bunny Brunel, which was my favorite Carvin/Kiesel. The Brian Bromberg is the most ergonomic, well designed bass in history and I had a 5 string model, but I had to come to terms with the fact that I didn't quite like the way it sounded.
Other than that, I'd get another one in a heartbeat, if they brought back the Bunny Brunel, or made an equivalent model...
L
Well compare that to a manufacturer like, say, Fender, for example
. I have 4 new Fenders (2 Tony Franklins, 2 Jaco jazz basses) all of which I bought this year, but only _1_ of the instruments I have arrived without a major defect. 3 required repairs immediately after taking them out of the case (my Blue Tony Franklin has defective fingerboard, required the washer-under-the-TR-nut trick, my Burst Tony Franklin had a hump in the fingerboard that required repair with a radius beam, my 1st Jaco jazz bass had a stripped out neck hold down screw, fixed with the toothpick-and-super-glue trick) and one had to be completely replaced by Sweetwater because the fingerboard was too defective to repair.And there's nobody I can call at Fender
; do they even answer the phone there? I doubt it. Sweetwater had to swallow one of the basses whole (the 2nd Jaco had to be completely replaced) and who knows how they came out in that deal with Fender.And I also wouldn't call Fender a commercial failure either....
.OTOH, my 3 Carvins were completely defect free from the factory and I never had to use their CS at all on those basses.
Anyway, you get the point. Sometimes things slip through the cracks and things like trying to repair a cracked fingerboard more times than the customer would prefer just happen from time to time. Especially with a "consumer level" manufacturer, which even Kiesel still is. They're not a total build-it-from-the-ground-up-while-the-customer-moves-into-your-shop-and-personally-watches-your-every-move outfit. They're still technically a mass-producer of basses, ultimately. And even at that, they have more customization options than anyone else beyond a pure boutique shop, so they're just that much more susceptible to a) stuff happens and b) disgruntled, penny pinching, impolite customers who are demanding the impossible, tomorrow, and at a money-losing-for-Kiesel discount.
So again, it's a matter of perspective. You have to see all sides of a story in order to get the big picture before you can condemn a manufacturer like Kiesel. Or Fender for that matter
. They've been doing what they've been doing for a very long time and have a very large satisfied customer base. So they're still doing something right, even with the occasional problems....L
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Look at this comment in that video posted above:
"The guitar plays like a dream, sounds amazing, and in truth, is the best guitar I've owned....but I'll never buy another, nor will anyone I know, due to the way Kiesel does 'business'."
Sounds like the guy who posted that seems off-balanced to me. We live in a world where the emotion of hate supplants logic too much. This is not the way.
It seems illogical to me to say that building a dream guitar which sounds and plays amazing, and is the best playing guitar that guy has is not the proper way to do business.
"The guitar plays like a dream, sounds amazing, and in truth, is the best guitar I've owned....but I'll never buy another, nor will anyone I know, due to the way Kiesel does 'business'."
Sounds like the guy who posted that seems off-balanced to me. We live in a world where the emotion of hate supplants logic too much. This is not the way.
It seems illogical to me to say that building a dream guitar which sounds and plays amazing, and is the best playing guitar that guy has is not the proper way to do business.
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Kiesel still gets the blame for things that happened during the Carvin years. Their sales department (Carvin) left a bad taste with me for a long time. My wife was going to buy me a bass as a surprise and the sales guy was adding all sorts of options, an amp, etc, etc to the order because he thought he had a sucker. Of course one of the options was a non-returnable option, coincidentally. She knew what was going on and bailed on the order, thankfully. I only have two hesitations now - I wish they used Hipshot tuners and some of the weights are a bit higher than I'd like. Oh, three - the wooden shoe headstock on the JB is terrible, the newer one even worse. But Kiesel is doing well and Kudos to Jeff for taking chances.
Well, back when they were Carvin under Mark Kiesel, they were always straight with me. I bought 3 Carvins - a Bunny Brunel 6 fretless, a 4 fretless and a Bromberg 5 fretless "S" model, and they all came in on time, as I ordered them, and in impeccable condition.
I'd find it hard to believe that their integrity somehow dropped under JK, especially now that they're expanding - not shrinking - their product lines and trying to increase quality (through reduced manufacturing amounts) rather than reduce it.
So always take things like that with a grain of salt and try to get the big picture if possible.
Like I said, the only reason I haven't gone with a Kiesel myself is that the Bromberg is the only one in their current lineup that I feel drawn to, but I'm not 100% on how it sounds. I loved mine, but it had a kind of a thin tone to it that just never grew on me. That may be different now with their newer humbuckers, as mine had an earlier type of humbuckers in it...
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Well compare that to a manufacturer like, say, Fender, for example
And there's nobody I can call at Fender
And I also wouldn't call Fender a commercial failure either....
That's because Fender has a policy in place where it deals directly with the retailer. I'm not arguing the merits of any Kiesel Bass over a Fender, or their relative QC issues. But your returns with Sweetwater, (who I won't deal with in any case), probably went okay... Since Kiesel deals directly with the client, irrespective of them saying that they won't take a return owing to a special finish, A cracked fretboard is unacceptable on any instrument. Fix it, make it right with the customer, don't take to the airwaves to trash them and make it right. Anything less than a replacement or an acceptable fixt as defined by the customer is just asking for trouble. I'm not saying they are a commercial failure, but rather the policy of returns is destined for failure.
I do agree with some of the non-returnable options being kind of arbitrary. Some make sense, like the ultrathin finishes, which are so easily damaged that returns can really be a problem for both Kiesel and the customer, but others don't make sense. Like roasted maple neck options are non-returnable, for no apparent reason. And there are a few others that I don't fully understand the rationale behind.
As for a cracked fingerboard, repairing it by gluing it back together isn't always a hack. If it's a neck-through and the crack is "clean" enough to just repair the crack, that's a viable option if the instrument is otherwise fine. But of course if the repair doesn't take or looks crappy, etc., well then putting it through the bandsaw really is the only viable option.
But return policies are a tricky business no matter what. If you're too liberal, and The Customer Is Always Right, you'll have a very difficult time staying in business in general. OTOH, if you're too cinchy about it, you get a bad reputation and that also makes it hard to stay in business.
I don't envy any bass maker having to do that balance job. That's pretty delicate and I sure wouldn't have to do it to put bread on my table at home, for sure....
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All I know is my JB5 fretless is an incredible bass, and Jeff liked my suggestion for a 60s bridge pickup location so much he added it to the menu.
