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Double Bass [kinda urgent] Yet another broken neck.

iJimaniac

iJimaniac

Guest
May 19, 2015
8
0
30
Douglas, AZ
#1
Hey all, new to the forums, long time bass player. Iv'e read the many threads on this unfortunately common occurence, but I've still got some uncertainty, so here goes nothing.

Here's the dirty details; Neck broke off at the heel (never again will I use bass stand while at outside gig). The joint fit up really good though, so I used some gorilla brand yellow wood glue (not to be confused with the clear stuff) I had on hand. I guess that was a mistake though, because a few months later and a lot of joint creeping, the neck popped off again. So I got some Titebond lll at the recomendation of another broken-neck-blues bassist, cleaned out the old stuff, and glued again. This time, it held pretty good, but 6 months later, POP goes the neck. At this point as you can imagine, the fitup was less than great. I cleaned out all the old glue, sanded it down some, and tried again. That brings us to 3am this morning, when the whole house was woken up by that ominous sound of the neck popping off once again.

So, fitup isn't great at this point. I have sanded it down to a point it's not terrible, but there's some places around the edge that you can slide a peice of paper in a good 1/4". So, main question is; should I try Titebond again, or try hide glue this time? Which one is more foregiving for imperfect fitup? If I go with hide glue, what ratio of water to glue would you recommend? I've only used the stuff once before on a simple violin seam repair, so I'm not exactly comfortable with it. Especially since I have a wedding I play at this weekend. Talk about a potentially embarrasing situation; bass snapping in half during the bridal march!

because of the wedding, I'd like to get it clamped up as soon as possible today. Being in dry-n-hot AZ, I think it should be able to cure in time for the weekend. If not, I might be able to beg around for a borrowed bass.

A little aditional info; It's a solid wood Hans Kroger 870t that I got used for $1500. the bass top is collapsing by the bass bar and the luthier said it's not worth fixing, so I'm not looking to do anything complicated like removing the fingerboard and remaining part of the heel.
Photos of current fitup while clamped; EDIT pics won't work and I cant post url because I'm a new member. Grr.
 
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#6
Ummm.... that's a hopeless glue job. If you really really don't care about the bass because it's worthless, you might as well do the worst ever repair and use screws like this person did (it's not a fix btw).

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Removing the heel and doing it properly is the only true option. If you glue it back on like you're doing, it's probably going to pop off at the slightest bump.

Time to rent/borrow a bass for the gig.
 
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#7
Hmm, less optimism than I was hoping for. I'll be loaning a bass for sure for the wedding. At this point I don't see a point in taking to a pro because; 1. As mentioned the bass already has a terminal illness. 2. The closest luthier of any repute is 2 hours away and admits he doesn't have much more experience than I do in basses. Screws are an absolute last resort (I'm sure I'd cry while doing it).
 
#9
How much do y'all think a luthier would charge to fit a new neck? They seem to cost about 150-200 shipped on eBay, but I'd probably guess they're the quality you'd find on a student bass (or possibly lower). I've got some experience fixing up mandolins and violins, but I don't think I'm at the level of fitting a neck yet.
 
#10
The cheapest way, not the best, is removing the fingerboard (never done it myself, but should be no problem if fixed with hide glue, as I read here on Talkbass), then glue the neck together and take a large long screw (one is enough if it is large and long enough) to screw both neck parts together. This will press the glued parts together too, so you might get a better join. The screw needs to sink into the neck so that the fingerboard could be glued back onto the neck.

A nicer repair is removing the neck completely, plan both parts, put a shim in between to get the old height, glue the neck together with hide glue and glue the neck into the bass. No screw needed, no removing of the fingerboard, but more work with planing the two surfaces, removing the neck parts etc.

Since a new neck needs to be fitted to the body, finished, I guess the work might cost at least as much as the neck itself. But better ask a luthier.

My old plywood bass had a broken neck and luthiers refused to repair it because of the extremely low value of the instrument.
A carpenter put one long, thick screw through the fingerboard (dyed maple) and the neck heel and also glued the neck parts together. This repair was not very nice (he put some black wax on top of the screw to flush with the fingerboard), but worked for 15 years until the instrument was stolen. Removing the fingerboard before would have been better, but he was a carpenter, not a luthier.
 
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#11
DoubleMIDI said:
The cheapest way, not the best, is removing the fingerboard (never done it myself, but should be no problem if fixed with hide glue, as I read here on Talkbass), then glue the neck together and take a large long screw (one is enough if it is large and long enough) to screw both neck parts together. This will press the glued parts together too, so you might get a better join. The screw needs to sink into the neck so that the fingerboard could be glued back onto the neck.

A nicer repair is removing the neck completely, plan both parts, put a shim in between to get the old height, glue the neck together with hide glue and glue the neck into the bass. No screw needed, no removing of the fingerboard, but more work with planing the two surfaces, removing the neck parts etc.

Since a new neck needs to be fitted to the body, finished, I guess the work might cost at least as much as the neck itself. But better ask a luthier.

My old plywood bass had a broken neck and luthiers refused to repair it because of the extremely low value of the instrument.
A carpenter put one long, thick screw through the fingerboard (dyed maple) and the neck heel and also glued the neck parts together. This repair was not very nice (he put some black wax on top of the screw to flush with the fingerboard), but worked for 15 years until the instrument was stolen. Removing the fingerboard before would have been better, but he was a carpenter, not a luthier.
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Thanks for the info. As I say, putting any hardware in it will be an absolute last resort. I'm thinking I might try what you and another suggested (removing the rest of the heel). I was under the impression that I'd have to remove the whole block behind the neck (meaning removing the top) as well, but I guess not? Thanks again everyone for your input!
 
#12
I'd follw DoubleMidi's advice. Take off the FB, drill for a large screw or two, and use the screw(s) for clamping pressure and positioning. Removing the heel from the block would be unecessary work, and could turn into a disaster if it's glued with the wrong stuff. Some luthiers would have you replace the screw with a dowel after the glue dries, but I don't think that would make sense given what you're working with here.
 
#13
That's gonna fail on the first warm day. The break is in a very bad spot, and you've already compromised the joint with multiple types of glue.

When it fails again, you're going to do this. Hit the butt end of the heel with steam until you can work it out of the block. Clean up all surfaces as well as you POSSIBLY can. Join the two sections of heel with either urethane glue or T-88 epoxy. Set the neck aside for at least a week to allow the glue time to fully cure. When the new glue joint is rock-solid, try to remove the fingerboard without damaging it. If you succeed, drill through the heel and countersink either end about 1/2." Run a piece of allthread through the hole and torque down a washer and nut at either end.

The neck MUST be reset with hot hide glue. Make it strong, about one gram of glue granules to one gram of water by weight. Fit shims as necessary to ensure a good tight fit. Be absolutely god**** certain that the neck is straight. Glue it. Clamp it. Wait.

EDIT: Having now seen the additional information you added to your original post, disregard everything I said. Junk it.
 
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#14
I'd think you may want to try a dowel. I can't tell from looking, but if you can drill out a matching hole on either side of the break and insert a strong dowel, then glue it, you might get the lateral strength you need to keep that repair in place. Better yet, a metal dowel.

I'm no expert. If it were mine, I'd get it to the shop and have it repaired and see if I could get a loaner/rental. Then, have a new neck put on it...or, get a new bass.
 
#16
cchorney said:
.....This "break - glue - break" process is wasting your time.
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+10000

You already _______'d yourself and the bass by making the completly wrong choices multiple times, so now you have a useless basket case that will not hold up for anything.

Unless you rurn a cross grain dowel on a lathe, they will not work. Common dowels grain rruns 90 degrees to the neck wood so expansion and contraction always rips them apart, doing more damage in the future and leaving a giant useless hole in the neck. Hardware is a possible last resort, but it would appear that you have long passed your capabilities to fix it. 'Nice day to go shopping for a new bass.....

Fill out your profile so at least folks know what your location is and they will be able to give better advive than just some random guy at some random location on the internet with a random useless "luthier" two hours away....'just sayin'....
 
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#17
If you are gluing cross grain to cross grain, not trying to glue end grain that is, your glue job, if done right, SHOULD be stronger than the actual wood it is bonding. Wood magazine did a joinery test several years ago, and ALL of the common glues, and joint types, the wood, even very hard woods, failed long before the glue gave up.
 
#18
Remember: even using screws to hold it together is not a long term solution. It will eventually fail.

A new neck will cost 150-200. Labor will easily equal that if not more. You will need to dig out the remaining part of the heel and IIRC, to do this repair properly, the top has to come off. Just taking the top off will be expensive. Considering it already has issues with the top caving in, well, you're pretty much shaged.

My advice: Sell it for $50-100 bucks to someone who wants to learn how to do bass repair. Even doing the screws and filling up the holes will be more trouble than it's worth. Sorry, it was terminal before and you probably sped up the process.
 

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