Lap joint instead of scarf joint?

[Will_White]

Would a lap joint (that's what it's called in metal working atleast, two boards glued face to face) at the headstock be strong enough to hold the tension of the strings? With a good glue joint the joint is stronger then the wood so it should but I wanted to get some other opinions.

 

[PDX Rich]

Would a lap joint (that's what it's called in metal working atleast, two boards glued face to face) at the headstock be strong enough to hold the tension of the strings? With a good glue joint the joint is stronger then the wood so it should but I wanted to get some other opinions.

For a flat profile headstock like a Fender?

 

[Will_White]

For a flat profile headstock like a Fender?

Yeah like this

That's just scrap wood I had in the shop obviously.

 

[PDX Rich]

I think that actually may be stronger than a scarf joint. I've only used lap joints for work benches, but I figure it would be work nicely for a headstock joint, as long as it's square and tight, of course!

 

[PDX Rich]

One thing to consider. Will you be creating as much joint compression as a scarf? Also, I think your gluing surface with all the end grain may be better-suited in a scarf joint.

 

[pilotjones]

A Fender-type neck doesn't use any scarf or lap joint - there is no joint needed. 1" thick neck blank, and you're done. That was the whole idea behind Leo's design.

 

[Hopkins]

A Fender-type neck doesn't use any scarf or lap joint - there is no joint needed. 1" thick neck blank, and you're done. That was the whole idea behind Leo's design.

This.


A lap joint on a angled head stock would suffer the same downfall as a single piece blank, you will have short grain running through the angled part of the neck causing a weak spot that can easily break.

 

[Will_White]

A Fender-type neck doesn't use any scarf or lap joint - there is no joint needed. 1" thick neck blank, and you're done. That was the whole idea behind Leo's design.

Yes but with Leo's design you have to machine the entire back of the neck, with the lap joint or scarf joint you can use a piece that's to thickness.

 

[Will_White]

This.


A lap joint on a angled head stock would suffer the same downfall as a single piece blank, you will have short grain running through the angled part of the neck causing a weak spot that can easily break.

I'm not thinking of angled, just flat but because of the increased drop it would have a higher break angle at the nut.

 

[Hopkins]

Yes but with Leo's design you have to machine the entire back of the neck, with the lap joint or scarf joint you can use a piece that's to thickness.

I'm not thinking of angled, just flat but because of the increased drop it would have a higher break angle at the nut.

The top of the headstock is pretty much the center line of the neck itself

If you stacked them like you are talking about, not only would it make for a very odd looking neck, it would be very weak because there would be very little wood in the transition, and it would be very short grained just like in a non scarfed angled headstock.

 

[Will_White]

The top of the headstock is pretty much the center line of the neck itself

View attachment 787546

If you stacked them like you are talking about, not only would it make for a very odd looking neck, it would be very weak because there would be very little wood in the transition, and it would be very short grained just like in a non scarfed angled headstock.

View attachment 787556

Ok i understand that, What if, while not normal, and a bit odd looking, I extended the headstock part 1/2 or 5/8 of the way into the area of the first fret giving more glue area and longer grain? Thinking of the where my thumb is when I play at the first fret I don't think it would really effect my playing.

 

[Hopkins]

Ok i understand that, What if, while not normal, and a bit odd looking, I extended the headstock part 1/2 or 5/8 of the way into the area of the first fret giving more glue area and longer grain? Thinking of the where my thumb is when I play at the first fret I don't think it would really effect my playing.

By the time you shaped it I think it would interfere with playing. You just wouldn't be gaining anything by doing this, and you would end up with a worse looking not as durable neck.

 

[mapleglo]

As someone who just shaved about 1/8" off the back of a neck, I can make an educated guess and say that it will, in fact, effect your playing. My left hand would become fatigued in minutes with the thicker neck, and that was only 1/8' difference. Bass (and guitar) necks are the thickness they are because they work at that thickness.

 

[Hopkins]

As someone who just shaved about 1/8" off the back of a neck, I can make an educated guess and say that it will, in fact, effect your playing. My left hand would become fatigued in minutes with the thicker neck, and that was only 1/8' difference. Bass (and guitar) necks are the thickness they are because they work at that thickness.

I wasn't really speaking of thickness, I was talking about a large volute that extends half way into the first fret position before it starts tapering off. I personally prefer a thick neck

 

[PDX Rich]

I personally prefer a thick neck

You'd love my Ric 4003! I don't mind a thicker neck, but definitely prefer a skinny Jazz neck (my latest build is a hybrid of the two shapes).

 

[pilotjones]

The top of the headstock is pretty much the center line of the neck itself

View attachment 787546

If you stacked them like you are talking about, not only would it make for a very odd looking neck, it would be very weak because there would be very little wood in the transition, and it would be very short grained just like in a non scarfed angled headstock.

View attachment 787556

This. Also note that this configuration would make for a steep drop to the E or B tuner, enough so that it would not function as desired, as well as producing a bump over the nut due to string stiffness, making it impossible to intonate.

Ok i understand that, What if, while not normal, and a bit odd looking, I extended the headstock part 1/2 or 5/8 of the way into the area of the first fret giving more glue area and longer grain? Thinking of the where my thumb is when I play at the first fret I don't think it would really effect my playing.

Like Hopkins said, I think it will be too far into your playing area. I've twice played with longer (in the body direction) volutes, and both times cut them back as soon as I picked up the neck to try it out.

 

[Scoops]

OK....My $0.02

I did a volute as Will is suggesting. Here a pic of the build in progress, that's where the volute ended up. Finished product doesn't bother me at all. Actually it aides me in finding low C on the B string. I say go for it! YMMV

 

[Hopkins]

OK....My $0.02

I did a volute as Will is suggesting. Here a pic of the build in progress, that's where the volute ended up. Finished product doesn't bother me at all. Actually it aides me in finding low C on the B string. I say go for it! YMMV

Still, your neck wont have such a dramatic angle to the E string, which will also cause problems as @pilotjones mentioned.

 

[Scoops]

Still, your neck wont have such a dramatic angle to the E string, which will also cause problems as @pilotjones mentioned.

Not necessarily. Depends on how you lay it out and cut the nut. As long as you establish a good witness point on the nut. I've been playing a couple basses with this config. No issues

 

[mapleglo]

I wasn't really speaking of thickness, I was talking about a large volute that extends half way into the first fret position before it starts tapering off. I personally prefer a thick neck

That too. I don't know if you saw, but on my 4001 Mashup build, I ended up moving the volute back, as you originally suggested, and I originally ignored. You turned out to be right, at least as far as my playing style is concerned.