Last time playing live with an amp

[erayser]

Man, silent rehearsals with IEMs and individual mixes has been a total game changer!

For the first time in nearly 42 years of playing in rock bands with guitar players and drummers, I can hear *everything*.

The band has become a *lot* tighter, and it’s something that everyone who gives us feedback comments on, including the four vocalists we auditioned last fall before bringing on our current guy, who is an absolute pro. We’ve gone from doing $400 gigs to doing $2400 gigs.

There’s also no ringing ears after rehearsals, and we can practice in our drummer’s basement without driving his entire family crazy - he uses e-drums at home. All they hear is the vocals.

Speaking of vocals, I can now sing backup properly *because I can hear myself*.

I started jamming with another group back in the fall, on the side - I had everyone investing in IEMs and I bought a digital mixer to support them. I can’t go back, for rehearsals - I just need to finally cut the cord for performances.

I can understand why some won't give up amps... when I first went ampless, I can honestly say I hated it... probably much as those that won't give amps today. I'm just glad I didn't give up on it. I've been ampless with IEM's for a decade now, and my gear has evolved a lot since. I've adapted my gear and tone to where I just love being ampless now. When I play on stage with backline now, the stage noise is painful to hear now... and not having the control of volume in my ears makes me feel helpless. Having an isolated personal mix is a game changer for me. Adding the bassboard, makes it feel like I'm playing loud, but at lower volume.

Silent practice/rehearsals are the best... I ended up buying my own personal digital mixer for my office/music room. I set up 6 individual stereo mixes, and 2 mono for when we have rehearsals at my place... and it sounds so good in our ears.... especially with the V-Drums. Everyone has their own preferences of what they want to hear... so it's nice that we can control our individual mixes with a mobile app.

We are having rehearsals in my office/music room tonight. I used to hate going to rehearsals... still do... but silent rehearsals at my house are fun... and I don't have to drive anywhere.

Preparing the room for silent rehearsals in a few hours....

 

[DeeZee]

You could send that WD-800 to me for safe keeping. Y’know…. to make sure you’re not tempted to start using it again.

I would do that for you.

You could send that WD-800 to me for safe keeping. Y’know…. to make sure you’re not tempted to start using it again.

I would do that for you.

All jokes aside as well as my butt hurt over transistor radio stage volumes, I will definitely keep my wd800 for recording and insurance against my amp-less move. I would be willing to bet the other guys in the band won't ever go without their overkill 100 watt tube amps on stage. They are very good about working with the rest of the band though and do turn down when asked to so there is hope for me not using an amp. With that being said, there may come a day where I again say F it and just go back to using an on stage amp. The only saving grace with the last show was that after the sound guy basically forced us to turn our stage amps off, we did slowly turn them back up after a few songs in. We didn't go hog wild with cranking the volume, but we got them up enough to be satisfying and guess what? Nobody died AND the sound guy said we sounded great after the show. Never even mentioned that he noticed we brought the stage volume up. He should have just trusted us

 

[DeeZee]

I go ampless frequently. But lately our singer, who runs the sound as well, has increasingly brought up how i need to turn down the amp when i do bring one (I ALWAYS keep the vol on the lower side). Its made me want to bring one more often lol.

Im like...can the drums turn down too? They are too loud on stage and you are mic-ing them and running them through the system...so.....

This never ceases to amaze me as well. The drums are loud as F anyway on stage, then they mic them into the house and here me and the guitarists are just trying to turn up just enough to match the on stage drum volume and it's us guitarists at 1/4 volume each that are too loud? We already can't hear ourselves with the drums going and the sound guy says we are the ones that are too loud

 

[DeeZee]

There's a reason the sound guy is asking you to turn down the stage volume. It's that you're simply to f*<#ing loud and the mix can't be leveled when you (or the guitars or drums etc) are too loud and out of balance with the other instruments and especially with the vocals, which in any decent band are (or should be) the primary focus. You're paying a sound engineer to make your entire band sound good and you don't want to trust them because you're unwilling to make whatever personal adjustments are required to make the bands overall sound as good as possible? So why bother having a sound person running the FOH, save the money and do it yourself since you know better than they do.

Word. And an ampless/silent stage is much simpler/faster to setup and balance, AND sounds noticeably better out front to the audience. It's not about YOU and what you want, it is (or should be) about getting the band to sound as good IN TOTAL as possible. Team players know this is Rule #1 - band before your own wishes/habits/ego. I'm guessing you're not much of a team player.

Couldn't have said it better.

Bro, I understand how all that works and I appreciate everything sound guys do. They are more important than the band in my opinion but some get a little anal about stage volume imo. I wasn't asking for much. I had a single 2x10" cab on stage and not cranked at all. The amp couldn't even generate full power because of the 8 ohms cab I was using verses if I had been using a 4 ohm cab. All I wanted was to hear a somewhat blended bass tone with the drums and everything else going on. I was asking for nothing more. I didn't even need my pants legs to move or feel the bass.

 

[DeeZee]

I can understand why some won't give up amps... when I first went ampless, I can honestly say I hated it... probably much as those that won't give amps today. I'm just glad I didn't give up on it. I've been ampless with IEM's for a decade now, and my gear has evolved a lot since. I've adapted my gear and tone to where I just love being ampless now. When I play on stage with backline now, the stage noise is painful to hear now... and not having the control of volume in my ears makes me feel helpless. Having an isolated personal mix is a game changer for me. Adding the bassboard, makes it feel like I'm playing loud, but at lower volume.

Silent practice/rehearsals are the best... I ended up buying my own personal digital mixer for my office/music room. I set up 6 individual stereo mixes, and 2 mono for when we have rehearsals at my place... and it sounds so good in our ears.... especially with the V-Drums. Everyone has their own preferences of what they want to hear... so it's nice that we can control our individual mixes with a mobile app.

We are having rehearsals in my office/music room tonight. I used to hate going to rehearsals... still do... but silent rehearsals at my house are fun... and I don't have to drive anywhere.

Preparing the room for silent rehearsals in a few hours....

Awesome setup you have there!

 

[evs]

I went ampless and IEM last year.
Was nervous about it but it is honestly amazing.

It is so great to have full control over your own mix.
Everything comes through clearly and cleanly.
The band got tighter, the harmonies got better.

I bring my sansamp pedal and that is all I need to get my sound.

The band has its own PA and sound guy so that makes it easy.

Playing the old fashioned way now sounds so messy to me.

 

[john_g]

This never ceases to amaze me as well. The drums are loud as F anyway on stage, then they mic them into the house and here me and the guitarists are just trying to turn up just enough to match the on stage drum volume and it's us guitarists at 1/4 volume each that are too loud? We already can't hear ourselves with the drums going and the sound guy says we are the ones that are too loud

Right??

 

[songwriter21]

So this past Saturday's show I was asked to turn down for the last time. And this is because I'm going amp-less for now on. I'm giving in. All I was using was a Mesa WD800 head and a single cab (a Mesa 210), and it was only probably at about 75 percent of the volume of what that cab is capable of. I've been playing live for 20 years now and I've always been a loud player by nature. I'm finished though, the sound guy wins, and I am glad he has won. I always get the best compliments on my playing and tone when I have reduced my stage volume to almost nothing and just let the PA support do the rest. I get it, it's best. I've already added a Sansamp bass driver di v2 to my pedal board and plugged into our system in our music studio and dialed up a almost identical tone out of all the monitors that I would get with my wd800. The crazy thing is I like having the tone all over the room now verses way back there in the back coming from my lonely cabinet that has been turned down to noise floor volume levels. I've yet to actually had a practice yet with the guys since the show though, but it should work fine, my bass is omnipresent in the room and not overpowering. I will just have to adjust to a level that everyone can live with once they get there. Probably they are gonna have a $h#t fit once they find out though. I've already ordered an EV 12" powered floor monitor wedge to just put on stage somewhere around my space, probably just out front with the rest of them just so I have some control just in case the venues we play are lacking in monitors or if the other band members just can't handle the level of bass I need in the monitors. Anyone else just give up and give in like this and go amp-less??

I've been happily playing without an amp or cab since '15. I have a Zoom MS60B into a Whirlwind DI, and my Sennheiser/Westone in-ear system. That's it. I not only set up in 5 min from this "rig" stored in my gigbag, but with good earphones, can hear GREAT bass. The tone in my ears is the tone I hear out front (also use wireless).

Good earphones make the difference...invest in a good system if you want to be happy! Also, you'll be happier if you bs with the sound crew at least for a bit (or try to). Being friendly, making conversation, and best of all, this advice will help tremendously..."Whatever makes your job easier."

 

[Bonecat]

I’ve been ampless for about 10 years now with no regrets. We have our own sound guy for the majority of the shows we play and he and I have a shared understanding of the tones that work best for us. It took a little time to build that trust, but it was definitely worth the effort. My rig fits on a compact pedalboard now and my back thanks me for that.

 

[-Stingray]

As the default soundman for our band (in smaller venues) I love going silent stage. Our drummer uses V-Drums, so it's eerily silent.

As the bassist, I am less than thrilled. I miss feeling my amp behind me, but I understand the value of a silent stage in getting the FOH sound right. I will admit that as a backing vocalist, it is far easier to hear myself without an amp behind me (likely bleeding into my microphone), and it's nice not to have to lug an amp around anymore. Bass>>>>compressor>>>Radial JDI and I'm good to go.

That said.......I still love doing occassional jams with friends where I get to crank my 700RB into my Eden 4x10.

 

[s0c9]

I’m one of those who started on guitar and then moved into the light. In retrospect, I wish I had spent those 18yrs on bass, not guitar, but…
I used to practice guitar thru outboard devices into a mixer and used headphones for monitoring - to avoid waking the kids and annoying the wife!
That was also when I started experimenting with IEM’s on stage.
Moving to bass and doing the same was a no-brainer as was dumping stage amps and going to a pedalboard - I was already using an AxeFX for guitar.
I was 100% IEM (customs as I can’t use universals) so it was easy to move.
Obviously, I didn’t grow up playing massive 8x10’s or even 4x10’s.
I played thru a 2x10 NEO cab with either an SVT7 or TT800 head. Still have them. Don’t use them.
That gave way to my practice amp - mark bass cmd121 - ‘cuz guitar player wanted bass on stage.
But I’m quite happy using my 64AUDIO A8’s and Khan VTDI.
All 6 of the bands I played/subbed with last year are 100% IEM with their own IEM mixers on stage.
For clarity.. 99% of the venues I play have House PA.

 

[DWBass]

I would love for the band to go full IEM but how do you quiet down an extremely loud drummer?

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I’m of the opinion that vocalists should never be doing sound.

I guess it depends on the vocalist, but I haven’t worked with one yet who didn’t blame every instance of low frequency feedback - usually from the drums - on my bass amp being too loud. They also tend to think that the vocals need to be the loudest thing, as if people are hanging off every word of the lyrics.

I’d decided once to learn how to do it myself, but our guitar player is a software designer and programmer, so he got up to speed a lot quicker on the mixer than I could possibly have, so he’s doing it. So far, no problems.

I would say that yes, vocals MUST be the loudest thing. People are NOT coming out to hear my cool bass licks or tone. Or yours. Or about 95% of other bass players on the planet. Vocals and THE SONG is what keeps the audience engaged and sticking around enjoying the music and therefore buying drinks and having food, which... is more likely to get a band repeat bookings with paychecks because the BUSINESS is good. It's not about hanging off every word or lyric- It's about engagement with the audience, and the one thing EVERYONE like to do besides eat, drink and play "air drums" like Phil Collins or Rush, is yes,... SING ALONG. On pitch. Off pitch. Whatever pitch. Yes, vocals MUST be the loudest thing.

Or join Don Caballero. Or an instrumental jazz group. Or a orchestra or concert band.

 

[MtManiac]

I would say that yes, vocals MUST be the loudest thing. People are NOT coming out to hear my cool bass licks or tone. Or yours. Or about 95% of other bass players on the planet. Vocals and THE SONG is what keeps the audience engaged and sticking around enjoying the music and therefore buying drinks and having food, which... is more likely to get a band repeat bookings with paychecks because the BUSINESS is good. It's not about hanging off every word or lyric- It's about engagement with the audience, and the one thing EVERYONE like to do besides eat, drink and play "air drums" like Phil Collins or Rush, is yes,... SING ALONG. On pitch. Off pitch. Whatever pitch. Yes, vocals MUST be the loudest thing.

Or join Don Caballero. Or an instrumental jazz group. Or an orchestra or concert band.

Sure, I’ve never actually gone to see a band live before, so am drawing on the purely theoretical point of view as someone who’s only played on stages, certainly not from also having been an audience member who really enjoys hearing the music, where vocals is just one instrument amongst all of them.

Hopefully you caught the sarcasm.

There is “loudest” and then there is “LOUDEST”.

Of course nobody is coming to hear my “cool bass licks”. Weird interpretation of what I said for you to jump to, and really weird that you wrote all this in response to my comment - it seems like there’s a personal insult taken somehow from my post, there’s certainly some kind of emotional content there that seems to be in the neighborhood of anger. I’m not saying how it is, only you know your feelings, I’m just saying how it seems, and that it is weird.

Anyway, that’s it, I’m not getting into a comment tennis match with you on this, so please consider that before replying again.

 

[-Stingray]

I would love for the band to go full IEM but how do you quiet down an extremely loud drummer?

This can be a challenging situation. We've used in-ear monitors (IEMs) with loud drummers before, and it's far from ideal. In my studio, I keep a plexiglass shield on hand for exactly this reason—when things get too loud, the shield goes up.


Another option is to require the drummer to use V-Drums. While that used to face a lot of pushback, it's becoming increasingly accepted—especially with more venues located in areas that enforce sound ordinances. Bands that are too loud often don’t get invited back. Drummers are starting to realize that owning a set of V-Drums can actually make them more marketable and versatile than those who don’t.

 

[MtManiac]

This can be a challenging situation. We've used in-ear monitors (IEMs) with loud drummers before, and it's far from ideal. In my studio, I keep a plexiglass shield on hand for exactly this reason—when things get too loud, the shield goes up.


Another option is to require the drummer to use V-Drums. While that used to face a lot of pushback, it's becoming increasingly accepted—especially with more venues located in areas that enforce sound ordinances. Bands that are too loud often don’t get invited back. Drummers are starting to realize that owning a set of V-Drums can actually make them more marketable and versatile than those who don’t.

I *love* v-drums, as a non-drummer, but I also wouldn’t want to invite the drummer to make gear requirements of me.

 

[twinjet]

So this past Saturday's show I was asked to turn down for the last time. And this is because I'm going amp-less for now on. I'm giving in. All I was using was a Mesa WD800 head and a single cab (a Mesa 210), and it was only probably at about 75 percent of the volume of what that cab is capable of. I've been playing live for 20 years now and I've always been a loud player by nature. I'm finished though, the sound guy wins, and I am glad he has won. I always get the best compliments on my playing and tone when I have reduced my stage volume to almost nothing and just let the PA support do the rest. I get it, it's best. I've already added a Sansamp bass driver di v2 to my pedal board and plugged into our system in our music studio and dialed up a almost identical tone out of all the monitors that I would get with my wd800. The crazy thing is I like having the tone all over the room now verses way back there in the back coming from my lonely cabinet that has been turned down to noise floor volume levels. I've yet to actually had a practice yet with the guys since the show though, but it should work fine, my bass is omnipresent in the room and not overpowering. I will just have to adjust to a level that everyone can live with once they get there. Probably they are gonna have a $h#t fit once they find out though. I've already ordered an EV 12" powered floor monitor wedge to just put on stage somewhere around my space, probably just out front with the rest of them just so I have some control just in case the venues we play are lacking in monitors or if the other band members just can't handle the level of bass I need in the monitors. Anyone else just give up and give in like this and go amp-less??

I didn't necessarily give up amps, but the band i recently joined only uses IEMs and a PA. The system runs exceptionally well and we always are complimented on our sound. Only when I see social media videos from an audience perspective do I comprehend how good things sound without us using amps.

Now, I maintain a GK MB210-II for small gigs, but it largely does not get used, which is fine - it has paid itself off tenfold.

 

[Jack]

I would love for the band to go full IEM but how do you quiet down an extremely loud drummer?

That depends on what you mean by 'extremely loud'. If you just meant 'acoustic drums played at gig volume' then IME in-ears give enough of a seal that enough of the drums are blocked out. Don't get me wrong, I can hear them and I don't purposefully route drums into my IEM mix, but it's fine. If you mean you just have an animal drummer that is incapable of playing at normal volumes then I'm afraid I don't know. To me that's the same as any musician who doesn't have adequate control over their instrument: tell them to practice more.

Acoustic drums, rock band, ampless and IEMs all round below. It can be done!

 

[pepj]

TLDR.
Almost without fail, the bands going ampless have amongst the worst sounds bar the young and no clue around here. So 30 plus yrs vets do not make it work.
Gtr who is known for his gtr sound has sacrificed that for his stomp signal which does not transfer into the P.A.
Its not the best P.A admittedly but even so..

Also drums are acoustic so if he gets a bit lively, none of the guys can hear and react to it and the mix from soundcheck is blown and everyone is oblivious.

So, imo, you HAVE to have a engr for outfront.
Its amazing that these guys who should really know better, fall over on something as basic as mix.
And even though there is a big clue when the crowd do not react as well as you could expect to a well executed song, they just don't get it..and the crowd dont tell them either.
When my friend told them to at least turn up the vox..which any FOH engr worth his salt would do as a matter of course, the band ignored him.. as though disbelieving that their 'great' ears mix could not actually be that great outfront.
The sound check with ipad didnt achieve much either ...
Their sound isn't bad but its nowhere near great either.

 

[EdO.]

TLDR.
Almost without fail, the bands going ampless have amongst the worst sounds bar the young and no clue around here. So 30 plus yrs vets do not make it work.
Gtr who is known for his gtr sound has sacrificed that for his stomp signal which does not transfer into the P.A.
Its not the best P.A admittedly but even so..

I'm a 40+ year vet playing in a respected Midwest tribute band with a group of six other 20 to 40+ year vets and we're a bunch of older guys ALL using digital processors, mostly Helix stuff but a couple other name brands as well and we regularly get high praise for our quality sound and mix. If a tribute to a well known major act doesn't sound like the act they're doing the tribute to, you're gonna hear about it pretty quickly. Three years on we're getting more and better paying gigs regularly so we must be doing something right...

If your guitarists' sound isn't transferring to the PA that is on the quality of the PA you're using and the quality of your sound person trying to run your sub par FOH system, not the quality of the signals going into it. You don't like the idea of going ampless and that's fine, you do you. But to say that ALL digital processor systems suck is obviously some biased bull and you obviously know not of what you speak. Invest in better FOH and a better sound person.