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Latest on Piezos

Mickey666

Mickey666

Apr 22, 2020
723
1,056
Oklahoma city
#1
Trying to aquire the knowledge to understand piezos, but all I'm getting from searching TB is really old stuff.
Mostly people asking the same questions I have, but they are all from 10 or more years ago.
So basically I'm wondering if they have gotten better, easier to use, etc.
I need ease of installation, and preferably passive.
I know I'll need a buffer of some sort, but is a built in pre necessary, or can I use a pedal?

Any information will be greatly appreciated...
I want to get this project started a.s.a.p.
 
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#2
I am not aware of any new piezo developments so things from 10 years ago are probably still valid -- or at least as valid as they ever were :laugh:

In case you haven't read enough, here are some basics of piezo pickups:

Magnetic pickups are mostly inductive while piezo pickups are mostly capacitive. Without getting into the details, that basically means they work opposite from each other in many ways. The signal generated by a piezo is also pretty small which, combined with a typical bass preamp input impedance, means that they don't work that well with piezo pickups.

Being inductive means that magnetic pickups become low pass filters when loaded, while piezo pickups become high pass filters, making them sound thin in typical bass applications. A very high impedance buffer on the piezo will help preserve the low frequency response and normalize the level relative to magnetic pickups, but they you need to worry about how and where to put that buffer.

Anyway, ask more questions if you still have them and good luck!
 
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#5
Jeff Siddall said:
I am not aware of any new piezo developments so things from 10 years ago are probably still valid -- or at least as valid as they ever were :laugh:

In case you haven't read enough, here are some basics of piezo pickups:

Magnetic pickups are mostly inductive while piezo pickups are mostly capacitive. Without getting into the details, that basically means they work opposite from each other in many ways. The signal generated by a piezo is also pretty small which, combined with a typical bass preamp input impedance, means that they don't work that well with piezo pickups.

Being inductive means that magnetic pickups become low pass filters when loaded, while piezo pickups become high pass filters, making them sound thin in typical bass applications. A very high impedance buffer on the piezo will help preserve the low frequency response and normalize the level relative to magnetic pickups, but they you need to worry about how and where to put that buffer.

Anyway, ask more questions if you still have them and good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks that helps some, guess I should do more research
Slidlow said:
What are you planning with the piezo?
Click to expand...
I'm doing a 4 string fretless solid body, with a clear top, wood Bridge, no controls... strung with tapewounds. Something I saw in a dream.
Ricky Caboverde said:
If you’re project is acoustic in nature, I think Barbera Transducers and LR Baggs AB4 pickups don’t require a preamp. Both sound fantastic on guitar; I’d expect the same for bass.
Click to expand...
Not acoustic, but I have read some good stuff about the L.R.Baggs units. I was wondering if they could be used with a solid body.
 
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#6
I started looking at piezo back in the 80s because they were touted to have flat response from DC to over 100 KHz. So my first attempt was with self made individual saddle elements and a self designed preamp. Didn’t get to finish that little bit of research but eventually was able to build a bass with individual saddle Graphtech piezos. It worked well but the buffer I used was for guitar and needs its gain reduced. Distorts with the preamp volume set high. Latest iteration is using a Richter multichannel buffe/preamp and I am expecting better results. I play Fretless and use nylon tapewounds exclusively. I do not generate an acoustic sound or even the typically expected “Fretless” tone. I’ll attach pictures or add a link to the lastest one I’ve posted details of here in the LC. Try searching ebony necked six string.
 
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#7
I've mucked around with these sorts of cheap chinese piezos and had reasonable success...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In fact, I've got a few basses that started off unfinished/unpainted with just piezos and I was surprised how good they sounded. I think it was (the great) @Bruce Johnson that told me the key with piezos is getting the disc under enough pressure to bend it a little. This apparently is the trick. As others have said, output level is an issue, but you could try using 35mm discs instead. And there are plenty of good preamps available these days. Personally I like to mix them with a MAG pickup of some sort.
 
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#8
reverendrally said:
I've mucked around with these sorts of cheap chinese piezos and had reasonable success...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In fact, I've got a few basses that started off unfinished/unpainted with just piezos and I was surprised how good they sounded. I think it was (the great) @Bruce Johnson that told me the key with piezos is getting the disc under enough pressure to bend it a little. This apparently is the trick. As others have said, output level is an issue, but you could try using 35mm discs instead. And there are plenty of good preamps available these days. Personally I like to mix them with a MAG pickup of some sort.
Click to expand...
I know it's not gonna sound like anything I'm used too... that's kinda the whole point of this exercise.
I already have several types of mag pups... I'm trying for something new.
 
#10
Mickey666 said:
I'm doing a 4 string fretless solid body, with a clear top, wood Bridge, no controls... strung with tapewounds. Something I saw in a dream.
Click to expand...
I've had some vivid dreams, but none that gave me that level of inspiration.
May need to know what brand of mattress and pillow you use!
(And for the record, that sounds really cool to look at. Interested in how this turns out.)
 
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#12
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#13
I'm installing Graphtech Ghost piezo saddles on my Winter Buildoff, shameless plug here
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/wi...-to-actually-finish-this-time-around.1633819/

I did a bench test a few years ago going into a Bartolini MPB2, it sounded great except the piezo to magnetic balance was way off.

I bought an AGMPBoo to try since it had a gain control for each channel (plus the connectors can plug right into the module) and I also have a discreet JFET unit from Passinwind Electronics.

20231223_101829.jpg
 
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#14
Klangfarbe said:
What you want is a Bridge with preloaded piezos.

https://www.thomann.de/de/abm_3710c_p_single_bass_piezo_cr.htm

Ghost PN-8370 - Loaded Hipshot A Style Bass Bridges, 4-String

AB-A4 PIEZO FOUR STRINGS



As far as i know, there are no passive piezos. So, yes you need a built in pre.
Click to expand...

there are passive piezos, but for technical reasons already stated they may not play nice with other gear that’s looking for an input similar to magnetic. Buffered and a preamp helps a lot.

There’s gotta be a reason (probably multiple) that passive piezos are rare. Companies wouldn’t spend money on a preamp if they don’t have to. I’ve got a passive disk style downstairs that used to be on a cigar box guitar. But you don’t expect much out of those.
 
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#15
Looks like I've got some more research to do.
This may be beyond my meager skills to put together since it seems none of my ideas work the way I want it to.
I was hoping for extremely basic, no controls, no batteries, just plug in and play.
I could deal with a pedal if absolutely necessary, but not being much of an electrician I didn't want a bunch of soldering or trying to figure out schematics.
 
#17
My biggest issue with piezos is that they amplify up picking fingerstyle. I find i have to downpluck with the fleshy part of my right thumb and roll my fretting fingers. I play fretless so it limits accents, but thats not necessarily bad. I just can’t approach second finger upplucking the same way.
 
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#18
Gorilla Monsoon said:
My biggest issue with piezos is that they amplify up picking fingerstyle. I find i have to downpluck with the fleshy part of my right thumb and roll my fretting fingers. I play fretless so it limits accents, but thats not necessarily bad. I just can’t approach second finger upplucking the same way.
Click to expand...

That's largely about impedance often. People describe it as piezo "klack". If you use a good preamp, it helps, but it's part of the sound of the strings. Fretted is worse. So are round-wound strings.
 
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#20
You may find that a lot of your problems have already been solved for you over on the double bass side of TB.

For upright bass players it’s very common to run passive piezo pickup systems which are then buffered by an outboard preamp, usually attached to the tailpiece or sitting on the floor. Many acoustic guitars are also equipped with an under-saddle piezo that runs directly to an endpin jack so the idea of running a passive piezo is nothing new and nothing that is all that hard to deal with. There are a number of outboard preamps that are designed to play nice with piezos from L.R. Baggs, Fishman, F-Deck, Schertler, etc…. Go ahead and make your bass with no controls; just run your piezos directly to an output jack and then run a short cable to an outboard pre. I know it’s not as simple as just plugging into your amp but it’s a lot more likely to get you workable results simply. I’ve used the good ol’ Underwood pickups on my DB for many years and run them into an L.R. Baggs Para Acoustic DI. There’s plenty of more modern stuff on the market now but these work fine for me. The notch filtering on the Baggs is especially useful and I’ve used it for acoustic guitar as well with good success.

FWIW, I have an archtop fretless made by a small, Japanese lutherie concern called Landscape that combines a typical jazz guitar style mag pickup with a passive, under-saddle piezo and, somehow, they blend nicely together. Honestly, I have no idea how they managed to pull that off. It’s not a perfect blend but it’s pretty darned good; a lot better than one might expect.
 
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