Here is an extracted EDM bass-line with the metronome from previously posted "Wasted Time."
The bass line is "playing something you enjoy."
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Learning how to lock with the drums...
- Thread starter rpavich
- Start date
Here is an extracted EDM bass-line with the metronome from previously posted "Wasted Time."
The bass line is "playing something you enjoy."
"Lock with the drummer" is a non technical phrase that ultimately means "both sound like they are playing together"
(another phrase is sounding "tight" ) So there is no single "always do it like this" approach.
"Match the kick drum" is the beginner bass player 101 approach
when a player is new to the world of really listening to the drummer,
it is the simplest route to a good result
When you graduate from the 101 class, you develop a sense for matching the kick when it matters
To me, I think either approach your video counts a "lock with the drummer"
because you are matching the kick when it matters
Another "pocket" concept that I learned here on TB is "leave space for the snare"
right before the snare hit on 2 and 4 , mute the bass completely and make it silent
sounds good and teaches you to listen not only for when to start but when to stop
Both are introductory ideas to apply to the task of listening and playing more tightly with a drummer
I feel a bass player should always know what the drums are doing
And in a larger sense the goal is to master your own part so you can focus on listening and responding to everyone else.
It bears mention that the important voices of percussion to "lock" with will vary by style/genre
In rock or funk you respect the snare on 2 and 4
In Jazz you respect the hi-hat
In salsa you respect the Clave
respect meaning you match up when it matters
etc
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I always feel like locking in depends on feeling the subdivisions of the beat the same way. The same amount of swing and the same basic subdivisions used.
So I always feel like it is much more important to key into the cymbals, where the drummer shows the subdivisions, than the kick or snare.
So I always feel like it is much more important to key into the cymbals, where the drummer shows the subdivisions, than the kick or snare.
FWIW "pocket" has no concise and agreed upon definition
everybody will give different answers (see "groove" , "ahead/behind the beat")
My favorite definition I have seen for pocket is:
the space between the kick and the snare
everybody will give different answers (see "groove" , "ahead/behind the beat")
My favorite definition I have seen for pocket is:
the space between the kick and the snare
Everyone, there are so many good insights here, thanks so much!
I’m making mental notes of them.
I didn’t know that there were replies, I wasn’t getting notifications.
Rehearsal tonight, I’ll put thes suggestions into practice!
I’m making mental notes of them.
I didn’t know that there were replies, I wasn’t getting notifications.
Rehearsal tonight, I’ll put thes suggestions into practice!
I always had the best luck playing with a drummer live as opposed to learning songs from recordings: I always played with right-handed drummers and always set up next to them on their left where I could easily see both hands and feet on the snare, hi-hat, and kick pedal(s),
No questions about syncing up to what they were doing when I could watch them.
No questions about syncing up to what they were doing when I could watch them.
Pocket is playing in time! Must have good, solid timing. Locking in means you and the drummer are playing in time together! Not necessarily playing the same thing but the feel is close. Different genres can have different feels. I play R&B, Soul and Funk so I have every intention to locking in with the drummer. Sometimes matching the kick drum. Sometimes not. But we're still locked in.
Great question with many fantastic responses!
To my ears, Roger Waters & Nick Mason on Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" lock in so well, even/especially on the slow stuff.
The bass doesn't only play on the kick, but they are always right there together!
Pocket is finding an agreement on how to feel and play the beat. Sometimes felt or implicit, sometimes spoken.
I played a gig with a fierce gospel drummer who had one signal for "We both go crazy right here" and another for "You hold it down while I go off, or I stop for a few beats".
That's cool because it can make improvised music sound composed.
To my ears, Roger Waters & Nick Mason on Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" lock in so well, even/especially on the slow stuff.
The bass doesn't only play on the kick, but they are always right there together!
Pocket is finding an agreement on how to feel and play the beat. Sometimes felt or implicit, sometimes spoken.
I played a gig with a fierce gospel drummer who had one signal for "We both go crazy right here" and another for "You hold it down while I go off, or I stop for a few beats".
That's cool because it can make improvised music sound composed.
As "mambo4" has mentioned previously, the term, "playing in the pocket" has numerous interpretations.
We should start with how Mark Levine defines playing in the pocket - simply as grooving, where the rhythm section is locked in and working as a unit.
in the pocket: When the music is rhythmically in a groove.
groove: The “lock” between members of a rhythm section playing well together.
Another description.
"Playing in the pocket is the intuitive and palpable “locking in” to the rhythmic integrity and feel of the band and/or the piece of music you are trying to play."
I've found a more extensive explanation of the term, "playing in the pocket."
From here:
What Is Playing In The Pocket? - Glenn Charles Riley
Playing in the Pocket is an absolute necessity for the serious bass player. There is nothing better than being the reason the band hooks up.
glenncharlesriley.com
1.) First, a great pocket has great time.
2.) Beyond tempo, you need to consider subdivisions of the beat.
3.) Accuracy
Precision in your playing is integral to the groove. You’ve heard bands where the drummer’s downbeat is in one place, the bass player is ahead or behind the drummer, and the guitarist is not with the others.
That inaccuracy will interrupt the groove and keep the pocket from developing.
4.) Listening
You must listen to the other musicians. It’s the only way music will work. Only when you listen to the drummer and the other players, can you groove together. The other musicians must listen to the bass and drums, so they hear the foundation of the song.
Mambo4,
Your "favorite" definition, kind of, removes the bass player (or any other musician from the rhythm section but the drummer) from that "equation."
I'm leaning towards a simple explanation of that term, "playing in the pocket" as achieving the rhythmic integrity and feel of the band.
That is probably the most concise description of " playing in the pocket " as you will get.
Anyone's more elaborate definition is probably just a description of what obstacles they faced in pursuit of playing well together
For me the primary obstacle was understanding precisely what the drummer was doing
hence the space between the kick and the snare is a forcing function for me to pay attention to the drums.
Let's listen to some drum&Bass mixtures.
The following bass-line from Tony O'Malley's, "Use Me" is, what I call, professionally-noodling (no time to breathe.)
It's like the bass is fulfilling the functions of many instruments of the rhythm section (like ghost notes imitating the drums/Hi-Hat.)
It would be difficult to describe the "playing in the pocket" by applying the "space between the kick and the snare" method.
Here is the track.
The following bass-line from Tony O'Malley's, "Use Me" is, what I call, professionally-noodling (no time to breathe.)
It's like the bass is fulfilling the functions of many instruments of the rhythm section (like ghost notes imitating the drums/Hi-Hat.)
It would be difficult to describe the "playing in the pocket" by applying the "space between the kick and the snare" method.
Here is the track.
Given my definition of the pocket being the rhythmic tension between two instruments: IMHO, there is definitely a pocket between the kick and snare. IMHO this relates to the rhythmic symmetry and "feel" the drummer gives to each measure. For example, the snare might be right on the beat or it may lay back a bit. The different is subtle and the feel should usually be consistent from measure to measure within a section of a song. However, the feel may change a bit from one section of a song to the next.
Years ago I played with a drummer who's rhythmic symmetry tended to constantly vary. My perception is time never seemed to settle with him. It felt like the tempo constantly speed up and/or slowed down. One day I was listening to him practice with a click, so I new the time was constant. I could hear slight variances in where he was placing different beats that changed from one measure to the next.
IME this sort of rhythmic variation is fairly common with drummer 's who set the time between clicks to be too long. For example having one click per bar are even one click for every two bars. With this particular drummer, his time was lopsided even without the click.
The following rhythmic bass-line is "template"-based with some easy "embellishments."
At that fast tempo, the bass player must comply with the 16th note drum/percussion "feel."
That "repetitive" bass-line keeps you always on "alert" to properly place the the accented 16th note-groove.
Here is the original of that song.
P.S. It's not that easy to get that groove "in the pocket" while playing live.
At that fast tempo, the bass player must comply with the 16th note drum/percussion "feel."
That "repetitive" bass-line keeps you always on "alert" to properly place the the accented 16th note-groove.
Here is the original of that song.
P.S. It's not that easy to get that groove "in the pocket" while playing live.
Here is a simple bass-line (just with the drums) that closely (tightly) follows the drum kick pattern.
Jeff Cascaro - Tripping Out.
No bass notes with the drum snare (unless the bass player is performing some kind of melodic embellishment.)
There are very few "flare-ups" - improvised musical ornaments - but they clearly indicate the bass player's abilities - like at 0:59, 2:12, 2:34, 3:13, etc...
Here is that song.
Jeff Cascaro - Tripping Out.
No bass notes with the drum snare (unless the bass player is performing some kind of melodic embellishment.)
There are very few "flare-ups" - improvised musical ornaments - but they clearly indicate the bass player's abilities - like at 0:59, 2:12, 2:34, 3:13, etc...
Here is that song.
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I've listened to your live recording, "Truckstop Hooligans live at Funky Cuda."
Solidly played - like a good bass player playing live some Folk Rock music.
I think knowing the repertoire of your band was a really big help.
Happy "bass-ing!"
I've listened to your live recording, "Truckstop Hooligans live at Funky Cuda."
Solidly played - like a good bass player playing live some Folk Rock music.
I think knowing the repertoire of your band was a really big help.
Happy "bass-ing!"
thanks so much!
Lots of good suggestions and stuff to listen to and learn from here...thanks everyone
No rhythmic "issues," not too many ornaments (just right), no "loose" noodling, clearly defined bass-line templates, properly marked songs' sections in the bass lines, strongly expressed harmonic foundation - that's what you need for that kind of music style bass-lines.
Drummer here. Personally I think that the most important thing is to play for the song. To me that is what "pocket" is all about. I play metal and metal is usually pretty wild but even still it's important for me to hold a groove and only go nuts when the situation calls for it. For the most part I try to par down my playing to the bare minimum to best support the tune.
In terms of drums and bass locking in I feel that first and foremost both musicians need to be playing for the song. Oftentimes that means playing together i.e. match up the bass with the kick. However when the situation calls for it I like to have a "conversational" feel which to me means occasionally letting the drums and bass emphasize on different notes rather than coincide on the same notes. To me it sounds good to sync up, de-sync tastefully, and then re-sync.
A lot of this will come from your relationship with your drummer. Try looking at your drummer, listening to what notes they're playing, mostly matching them but then occasionally playing a note that intentionally doesn't match them.
In terms of drums and bass locking in I feel that first and foremost both musicians need to be playing for the song. Oftentimes that means playing together i.e. match up the bass with the kick. However when the situation calls for it I like to have a "conversational" feel which to me means occasionally letting the drums and bass emphasize on different notes rather than coincide on the same notes. To me it sounds good to sync up, de-sync tastefully, and then re-sync.
A lot of this will come from your relationship with your drummer. Try looking at your drummer, listening to what notes they're playing, mostly matching them but then occasionally playing a note that intentionally doesn't match them.
