Learning how to lock with the drums...

[rpavich]

As a former guitarist who did listen to the drums and bass (pretty well) I'm now on bass and I want to really know my job...
I am in an original band so I decide what the tune sounds like as opposed to a recording and I'm mimicking it, which is good but it makes the "setting in stone" of things a bit "fluid"....depending on the mood.

Here is my question: I'm practicing locking with the drums and I'm unclear about the "and"'s of the beats...specifically, does the drummer and bassist always have to agree on which it is for a beat or is it ok for the bassist to play the "and' and the drums to play a straight 4/4?

 

[Lobster11]

"Locking in with the drummer" definitely does not mean playing on all the same beats as the drummer, or ensuring that both are syncopated or neither is syncopated, etc. It really just means that the two parts are "in synch" in some way -- mostly, perhaps, by virtue of both of you agreeing on exactly where "the one" is.

I thought both of the parts you played sounded fine, but notice how different they feel. The first creates a driving rhythm that can sound good if that's what you're looking for in a song -- but playing that way all the time would probably get boring eventually. The second creates more interest (to me, at least) by virtue of the difference in groove between the bass and drums; you are using the space between downbeats differently than the drummer, but in a way that the two parts sound great together.

You are overthinking this. I get the impression that you have a good ear but just don't have the confidence to trust it. I say play what sounds good to you, and re-think it only if your bandmates don't like it.

 

[JRA]

 

[rpavich]

"Locking in with the drummer" definitely does not mean playing on all the same beats as the drummer, or ensuring that both are syncopated or neither is syncopated, etc. It really just means that the two parts are "in synch" in some way -- mostly, perhaps, by virtue of both of you agreeing on exactly where "the one" is.

I thought both of the parts you played sounded fine, but notice how different they feel. The first creates a driving rhythm that can sound good if that's what you're looking for in a song -- but playing that way all the time would probably get boring eventually. The second creates more interest (to me, at least) by virtue of the difference in groove between the bass and drums; you are using the space between downbeats differently than the drummer, but in a way that the two parts sound great together.

You are overthinking this. I get the impression that you have a good ear but just don't have the confidence to trust it. I say play what sounds good to you, and re-think it only if your bandmates don't like it.

Thanks for the info and good words...yes...I have a good ear but no background in bass...this is all new to me. I don't want to develop bad habits or do a bad job for the band...that's all.

 

[lowplaces]

Sounds good = is good imo.

 

[Wasnex]

You need to understand a concept commonly called the pocket. My definition of the pocket is the rhythmic tension that occurs between two players. Since a band often has more than two players, there can be more than one pocket. However, usually the pocket between the drums and bass is primary.


By rhythmic tension, I mean the drummer and bassist don't necessarily place the beat at exactly the same place. One may push ahead a bit and the other may pull back. The tricky part is both players have to agree on the degree of tension. If they don't agree, the tempo will tend to vary or the feel of the song may be bad.

To further complicate matters, perception of the pocket is somewhat distorted by distance between players, how well they hear each other, and room acoustics. My point is it's not always clearly defined.

You can practice with a metronome. However, you need to understand that a metronome keeps consistent time and does not response to variation in rhythmic tension. A real drummer typically will respond if he/she hears you pulling or pushing the beat. It can take time for a drummer and bassist to get used to each other enough for the pocket and time to settle.

Also, the shape of the pocket varies from one song to the next. So you may feel comfortable and locked in with the drummer for some songs and disconnected on others.

Another issue is the way we play songs over time tends to evolve. When you first learn a song, the pocket may feel odd. As you play the song in, it begins to groove. Later things may change and the tempo may tend rush or drag.

 

[lowplaces]

 

[Whousedtoplay]

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does the drummer and bassist always have to agree on which it is for a beat or is it ok for the bassist to play the "and' and the drums to play a straight 4/4?

Don't get me wrong, but there are MILLIONS of various(!!!) bass-lines!

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Different approaches, different visions, different requirements, different imagination, different genres, different styles, different songs' mood, etc... of the bass lines - there are so many DIFFERENCES about each and every bass line.
The CREATION of the bass-line is up to the bass player or the arranger, or the composer, or the Band Leader, or the band, or the Lead vocalist, etc...
Start learning bass lines (just visit our TAB forum) and analyzing them, depending on the STYLE preferences and your MUSICIANSHIP.

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[Topkat13]

Listen to other tunes with a similar beat.

 

[brianrost]

I'm unclear about the "and"'s of the beats...specifically, does the drummer and bassist always have to agree on which it is for a beat or is it ok for the bassist to play the "and' and the drums to play a straight 4/4?

I’m assuming you mean the typical 16th note accent before the downbeat. It’s by feel whether both, either or neither play accents on the “and" bass and drums.

Two examples:

For the blues “march” feel, the bass is typically playing quarter notes, sometimes eights. I’ll often use a 16th accent before the one, but not in every bar. Many drummers do the same.

For a Cajun waltz, there’s a push into the downbeat. The basic rhythm is quarter notes, 1-2-3. The bass will either play only the downbeat or play all three beats (typically walking). I’ll often use a 16th accent before the one. Again, this is just a feel thing.

Most of locking is listening to the bass drum and making sure you are not interfering with it.

I also listen for where the drummer is relative to the beat, especially the backbeats. If the drummer is playing behind the beat, you can choose to lay back there with it, play slightly ahead or play right on the beat. If I feel the drummer is rushing, I’ll start playing behind the beat to try to slow it back down.

 

[Square]

What would Bootsie do?

 

[g-dude]

Try this:

- Listen to a song that isn’t EDM
- figure out the tempo
- start a metronome
- note how you hear note outside of the metronome beats

Now start a metronome and just play something you enjoy.

Notice how you are playing to the metronome, with the metronome, and yet you aren’t duplicating the metronome?

Go forth and play the bass in this same spirit.

 

[Paul New]

Can you hear how deep, or back, in the pocket he is?

 

[sawzalot]

For a great pop example, listen to how syncopated the bass line to Don't Start Now (Dua Lipa) is. Sometimes playing with the kick, but just as often playing syncopated beats between, but always pushing the song forward and the syncopation really makes the whole song. The important thing is doing what the song needs and making the overall groove happen.

 

[DWBass]

You're playing is fine. As long as you can feel the pulse of the drums and are able to play to it......you're fine. Nothing worse than a drummer and bassist playing independently and not listening to each other. Work as a team.

 

[bherman]

I play with a really great drummer, and there’s a few things I’ve learned from him that really stick with me. First off, don’t get in each other’s way. If there’s something he’s doing that’s important to the song, don’t play over it or in a way that clashes with it. Second, and this is my base players mantra is keep it simple when The song is quiet or the singing going on. Bass players have a tendency to overplay in a lot of spots in a song where they should not, and he’s taught me to remember that our primary job is back up for vocals and other parts of the song.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Listen to a song that isn’t EDM

I don't agree with your statement.
There are so many "Diamonds and Pearls" for the bass player in that EDM genre.
Just one example out of thousands.

Two "EDM" guys - Micky More & Andy Tee.

And here is one of their tracks that I love the bass-line, and I'm trying to play it correctly.




Here is another EDM example that I like the bass-line.
And it's not that easy to play it.

 

[pbassnut]

As a former guitarist who did listen to the drums and bass (pretty well) I'm now on bass and I want to really know my job...
I am in an original band so I decide what the tune sounds like as opposed to a recording and I'm mimicking it, which is good but it makes the "setting in stone" of things a bit "fluid"....depending on the mood.

Here is my question: I'm practicing locking with the drums and I'm unclear about the "and"'s of the beats...specifically, does the drummer and bassist always have to agree on which it is for a beat or is it ok for the bassist to play the "and' and the drums to play a straight 4/4?

Either of your approaches worked well, IMHO. I think that when all is said and done, there are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to the team approach to making a rhythm section groove ... like playing ahead of the beat or behind the beat, for example. A few rules of thumb (with plenty of exceptions): complex drums with simple bass tends to work, simple drums with complex bass tends to work, complex drums with complex bass can work (The Who w/Keith Moon and Rush come to mind) but is more of a challenge to piece together. Simple drums with simple bass can work, too ... particularly backing a lot of instruments and/or busy players because rests have their merits, too.

 

[g-dude]

I don't agree with your statement.
There are so many "Diamonds and Pearls" for the bass player in that EDM genre.
Just one example out of thousands.

Two "EDM" guys - Micky More & Andy Tee.

View attachment 7323226

And here is one of their tracks that I love the bass-line, and I'm trying to play it correctly.




Here is another EDM example that I like the bass-line.
And it's not that easy to play it.

You totally missed my point.

The point of the exercise was to not listen to EDM because you need music where the drums are different than a metronome.

Anything with four on the floor isn’t going to demonstrate the principal at play here.

The goal was to be able to hear how different instruments play different rhythms, and aren’t all locked in to strictly duplicating a constant quarter or eighth note pulse.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

there are many ways to skin a cat

P.S. Three of my lovely cats at home are asking me,
"Daddy, do they still skin cats for some furs?"