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Learning modes for soloing

I-Love-Ratm

I-Love-Ratm

Inactive
Feb 24, 2003
1,079
2
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#1
Hi,

I realize there is plenty of threads on here about this kind of thing but I'm still not quite sure on this. I've been playing for 10 years or so now but at the moment I'm trying to push my playing to the next level.

When I get called to do a solo I struggle and usually just end up staying with in the key I'm in and just winging my way through it. My knowledge of theory is pretty good but I know very little about the different modes or how to use them?

Take for example this Victor Wooten improv solo . I love that solo and the notes he picks are incredible. The chords he plays over are just Am Bm Em and D . Is he playing within a certain scale or mode here to get that lovely almost sad sound?

Any help here is appreciated. Thanks guys and gals.

Mike
 
#2
Listen closely & I you will often hear that the scales/modes/patterns/etc are there to embellish a very simple melody stated up front & present throughout the solo. There's nothing wrong with playing in the same key. Entire jam band CDs are played that way. Perhaps you need to add some melodic lines to your solos? A simple melody can be 3 notes in 1 measure + a measure of rest.
 
#3
Lot's of Pentatonics, sequences, time displacement, chromatic tension and release, substitution, arp's, resolutions, quick patterning, rhythmic feel within modes/key centre there by the sounds of what Vic is doing, it's a really nice solo, lot's of feel, the phrasing/s have nice flow.
 
#4
+1 to SKITCH who outlined many of the approaches Vic uses in this solo. I'd add the following commentary, which may overlap in some ways, but I'm stating it differently.

Guys who can play like this also have a total command of the bebop jazz language. I could point out many instances in this solo where this is evident. Some teachers would argue that the proper sequence in learning to improvise is to learn that language first, and then move on to incorporating more "modern" sounding elements into your soloing. I dont necessarily prescribe to the notion that you need to understand the traditional jazz language first, but it is a necessity that you understand it and can play in those styles, in the bigger picture. Vic not only has mastery of the traditional jazz language but also of much more profound improvisational concepts. The advanced concepts of playing "in" and "out" of the harmony (which Vic uses, and I suppose are what you are reacting to...) are not just playing "right" and "wrong" notes, but rather having such a strong command of the harmony and such a great ear that you can "toy" with the listeners ear with dissonance in a way that sounds good.

UNderstanding that language also means understanding harmony (ie chords). So, when faced with a solo on one chord, yes it can sound static and uninteresting. However, advanced players incorporate substitute changes and progressions OVER that single chord, which takes the listener on a musical trip, and makes it much more interesting.

Modes are just one way to approach improvisation, and they are a good place to start, but thinking that understanding just modes is the end-all is like saying that you want to drive a car really well, and once you buy tires you'll be all set. This isnt meant to be discouraging, but consider that people spend a lifetime furthering their improvisational skills.

Victor is a very advanced player in all respects, and I think that we bass players miss the boat on him a bit. IMO, it is actually much easier to learn to play all his techincal stuff, and slap like a monster, than to equal his level of mastery as an improvisor. As if he doesnt get enough kudos already, I'd say he doesnt get enough mention for his pure improvising ... playing over changes as we say. Ive heard him play over some advanced harmonic structures, and he just blows me away. Another guy to listen to for this is Patitucci, who is perhaps an even deeper player than Vic in this respect. Finally, listen to other instruments and apply what they do to the bass....honeslty this is what most great bass improvisers have done.

So, dont get discouraged, but DO get a really good teacher. The teacher does NOT need to be a bass player. Just an effective teacher of improvisation.
 
#5
dpbass66 said:
+1 to SKITCH who outlined many of the approaches Vic uses in this solo. I'd add the following commentary, which may overlap in some ways, but I'm stating it differently.

Guys who can play like this also have a total command of the bebop jazz language. I could point out many instances in this solo where this is evident. Some teachers would argue that the proper sequence in learning to improvise is to learn that language first, and then move on to incorporating more "modern" sounding elements into your soloing. I dont necessarily prescribe to the notion that you need to understand the traditional jazz language first, but it is a necessity that you understand it and can play in those styles, in the bigger picture. Vic not only has mastery of the traditional jazz language but also of much more profound improvisational concepts. The advanced concepts of playing "in" and "out" of the harmony (which Vic uses, and I suppose are what you are reacting to...) are not just playing "right" and "wrong" notes, but rather having such a strong command of the harmony and such a great ear that you can "toy" with the listeners ear with dissonance in a way that sounds good.

UNderstanding that language also means understanding harmony (ie chords). So, when faced with a solo on one chord, yes it can sound static and uninteresting. However, advanced players incorporate substitute changes and progressions OVER that single chord, which takes the listener on a musical trip, and makes it much more interesting.

Modes are just one way to approach improvisation, and they are a good place to start, but thinking that understanding just modes is the end-all is like saying that you want to drive a car really well, and once you buy tires you'll be all set. This isnt meant to be discouraging, but consider that people spend a lifetime furthering their improvisational skills.

Victor is a very advanced player in all respects, and I think that we bass players miss the boat on him a bit. IMO, it is actually much easier to learn to play all his techincal stuff, and slap like a monster, than to equal his level of mastery as an improvisor. As if he doesnt get enough kudos already, I'd say he doesnt get enough mention for his pure improvising ... playing over changes as we say. Ive heard him play over some advanced harmonic structures, and he just blows me away. Another guy to listen to for this is Patitucci, who is perhaps an even deeper player than Vic in this respect. Finally, listen to other instruments and apply what they do to the bass....honeslty this is what most great bass improvisers have done.

So, dont get discouraged, but DO get a really good teacher. The teacher does NOT need to be a bass player. Just an effective teacher of improvisation.
Click to expand...
+1 to you.
 
#6
dpbass66 said:
Guys who can play like this also have a total command of the bebop jazz language. I could point out many instances in this solo where this is evident. Some teachers would argue that the proper sequence in learning to improvise is to learn that language first, and then move on to incorporating more "modern" sounding elements into your soloing. I dont necessarily prescribe to the notion that you need to understand the traditional jazz language first, but it is a necessity that you understand it and can play in those styles, in the bigger picture. Vic not only has mastery of the traditional jazz language but also of much more profound improvisational concepts. The advanced concepts of playing "in" and "out" of the harmony (which Vic uses, and I suppose are what you are reacting to...) are not just playing "right" and "wrong" notes, but rather having such a strong command of the harmony and such a great ear that you can "toy" with the listeners ear with dissonance in a way that sounds good.

UNderstanding that language also means understanding harmony (ie chords). So, when faced with a solo on one chord, yes it can sound static and uninteresting. However, advanced players incorporate substitute changes and progressions OVER that single chord, which takes the listener on a musical trip, and makes it much more interesting.

Modes are just one way to approach improvisation, and they are a good place to start, but thinking that understanding just modes is the end-all is like saying that you want to drive a car really well, and once you buy tires you'll be all set. This isnt meant to be discouraging, but consider that people spend a lifetime furthering their improvisational skills.

Victor is a very advanced player in all respects, and I think that we bass players miss the boat on him a bit. IMO, it is actually much easier to learn to play all his techincal stuff, and slap like a monster, than to equal his level of mastery as an improvisor. As if he doesnt get enough kudos already, I'd say he doesnt get enough mention for his pure improvising ... playing over changes as we say. Ive heard him play over some advanced harmonic structures, and he just blows me away. Another guy to listen to for this is Patitucci, who is perhaps an even deeper player than Vic in this respect. Finally, listen to other instruments and apply what they do to the bass....honeslty this is what most great bass improvisers have done.

So, dont get discouraged, but DO get a really good teacher. The teacher does NOT need to be a bass player. Just an effective teacher of improvisation.
Click to expand...

+2, Great post, excellent points there well put ; )
 
#7
I should really learn how to solo - I've always resisted it since I really get bored *hearing* 99% of bass solos, let alone playing them... I spent all that energy learning to walk (which I'm still weak at!)... But I should find a guy to give me some hints...
 
#9
BigOldHarry said:
I should really learn how to solo - I've always resisted it since I really get bored *hearing* 99% of bass solos, let alone playing them... I spent all that energy learning to walk (which I'm still weak at!)... But I should find a guy to give me some hints...
Click to expand...

Love it.

You can spend a lifetime learning to walk properly. There is always more you can add to your walk.

Lots of different solos too. I don't get off on listening to extended jazz impro though it can be nice background if done tastefully.

Actually my favorite bass solo in the universe is Suzi Quatro in Get Back Mamma. Nothing flashy or fast, but ultra tasteful in the style and context of the song. But I'll probably get flamed by some TBers for this one....she's no Jaco or Victor in technique, and the song is 70s pop. I don't care. What she does works for me.
 
#10
Without having heard the clip and since the chords are "Am, Bm, Em and D" then I will guess he's probably just soloing over G major and the attending modes, since all of these chords are diatonic to G major.

You can also play any of the pentatonic degrees associated with G major over all those chords. Most people only talk about the "major" and "minor" pentatonic, which are the 1st and 6th major scale degree pentatonics. But you also have the 2nd, 3rd and 5th scale degree pentatonics.

Also, a lot of people here seem to like to talk about soloing chord by chord, but that is a really old bebop jazz style. The thing I'm learning and found to be easier and just as effective is to solo over key centers vice specific chords. Sometimes you have to do individual chords, but mainly you want to find the keycenter and G major is one big keycenter for the chords you mentioned. But to each his own.

Anyway, if you know how to manipulate this stuff, you can sound like whoever you want. But mainly you just wanna sound like you, I suppose...

As was mentioned, Patticucci is the guy you wanna check out when it comes to improvisitation, I think. He is light years past almost everyone, Victor included, in my opinion when it come to that.
 
#12
VICTOR IS NOT THINKING ABOUT MODES. NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

It's better to focus on the key when soloing. If you're thinking "ok now I'm in D dorian, now it's G mixo, now C major" you're going to sound like crap.

In the example video, he's playing all in E minor. If he was changing "modes" all the time, he'd be focusing a lot on roots and his solo would be boring and amateurish. He's playing in E minor and superimposing diminished and augmented passing tones to add to the strength of the key, chord changes and the solo.
 
#13
As bass players we can get really caught up in the essentials of music and never really understand the one crucial part we usually don't get to do--- melody. I struggled for years with soloing until I studied with a sax player, who had me do nothing for many lessons but play melody, he would have me work thru a tune by working out a chordal structure on bass and keyboard and phrasing the melody properly. Knowledge can be an effective tool for soloing but if you cannot play a melody no body will ever listen.
 
#15
Spin Doctor said:
That's a freakin tough book isn't it? I definitely intend to finish it. It's one of the few books I've run across that I think might be worth while.
Click to expand...

For sure, a few great bassists I know have commented the same on that one, it's a very in-depth look at the way he approaches technique and harmony. I particularly liked the strong beat/weak beat concept he relates for chromatic/other choices in walking lines and soloing, I just like him as a musician/fella really, he seems very down to earth, he likes mtbing and he can play the bass a bit too so it's said ; )
 
#16
Snarf said:
VICTOR IS NOT THINKING ABOUT MODES. NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

It's better to focus on the key when soloing. If you're thinking "ok now I'm in D dorian, now it's G mixo, now C major" you're going to sound like crap.

In the example video, he's playing all in E minor. If he was changing "modes" all the time, he'd be focusing a lot on roots and his solo would be boring and amateurish. He's playing in E minor and superimposing diminished and augmented passing tones to add to the strength of the key, chord changes and the solo.
Click to expand...

I have a question about what you are saying here. Ok, so if he's playing in E minor, this says to me he's playing in the relative minor if G. (If the listed chord progression is correct) Could he not be playing different modes of the key and just land on the E when appropriate to reinforce the tonality? My take it that just because you play in different modes, doesn't mean you have to slave yourself to root notes. E minor (aeolian) and G major (Ionian) all contain the exact same notes. All of the modes of any given key are all of the same notes. To me, playing different modes is just a way of getting you around the fretboard.

Just wondering about your take...
 
#17
Spin Doctor said:
I have a question about what you are saying here. Ok, so if he's playing in E minor, this says to me he's playing in the relative minor if G. (If the listed chord progression is correct) Could he not be playing different modes of the key and just land on the E when appropriate to reinforce the tonality? My take it that just because you play in different modes, doesn't mean you have to slave yourself to root notes. E minor (aeolian) and G major (Ionian) all contain the exact same notes. All of the modes are all of the same notes. To me, playing different modes is just a way of getting you around the fretboard.

Just wondering about your take...
Click to expand...

+1, Me too......
 
#18
Snarf said:
VICTOR IS NOT THINKING ABOUT MODES. NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

It's better to focus on the key when soloing. If you're thinking "ok now I'm in D dorian, now it's G mixo, now C major" you're going to sound like crap.

In the example video, he's playing all in E minor. If he was changing "modes" all the time, he'd be focusing a lot on roots and his solo would be boring and amateurish. He's playing in E minor and superimposing diminished and augmented passing tones to add to the strength of the key, chord changes and the solo.
Click to expand...

Yes. This.
Find notes that sound good. Use those notes.

Don't care what scale/mode/tonality their in. If they sound right play them.
I couldn't solo worth sh!t when I use to think "notes, scales, modes, etc."
I still can't solo worth sh!t, but it's better than it was.
 
#19
HeadyVan Halen said:
Yes. This.
Find notes that sound good. Use those notes.

Don't care what scale/mode/tonality their in. If they sound right play them.
I couldn't solo worth sh!t when I use to think "notes, scales, modes, etc."
I still can't solo worth sh!t, but it's better than it was.
Click to expand...

What is it about bassist that they think it's ok to never know what the F**k they are doing? You think Victor doesn't know exactly what he's playing when he plays it? He doesn't have to be consious of it every second. But believe me, he has total and I mean TOTAL command of what he is doing at all times...

Sorry for the rant, but I hear this nonsense way too often, and generally from the same people over and over.
 
#20
Spin Doctor said:
What is it about bassist that they think it's ok to never know what the F**k they are doing? You think Victor doesn't know exactly what he's playing when he plays it? He doesn't have to be consious of it every second. But believe me, he has total and I mean TOTAL command of what he is doing at all times...

Sorry for the rant, but I hear this nonsense way too often, and generally from the same people over and over.
Click to expand...

+1 Didn't you know? You go to the crossroads at midnight on a certain night of the year, there is a mystical Raccoon who is waiting there, you give him some nice acorns, and he gives you all the theoretical knowledge you want for free, that's what I heard anyways :)
 

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