Learning modes for soloing

[Snarf]

I have a question about what you are saying here. Ok, so if he's playing in E minor, this says to me he's playing in the relative minor if G. (If the listed chord progression is correct) Could he not be playing different modes of the key and just land on the E when appropriate to reinforce the tonality? My take it that just because you play in different modes, doesn't mean you have to slave yourself to root notes. E minor (aeolian) and G major (Ionian) all contain the exact same notes. All of the modes of any given key are all of the same notes. To me, playing different modes is just a way of getting you around the fretboard.

Just wondering about your take...

1st, @HeadyVan: You're missing the point. I don't mean to promote ignorance. Here's what I am promoting:

Yes, you should be aware that the relative major of E minor is G major. That's important. It also sounds good to play G major over E minor. It sounds good to play off the 9. It sounds good to play HW diminished over the V chord in a minor key. But you should also be aware that the E minor is clearly the dominant tonality in the clip. To call it G major would be wrong. You MUST service the key sometimes.

BUT

If you are playing a tune that has II-V cycles and key changes, the key is the important part, as well as the quality of the V chord. The root of each chord in each key is not something to focus on when soloing, and that's what happens when you think, in the first 4 bars of a tune like All The Things "F aeolian, Bb dorian, Eb mixo, Ab major." That's unnatural. It is technically true, but it's adding information that is not necessary to playing a good bebop solo, in fact it is a hinderance and honestly I think a lot of people teach that way because they themselves haven't figured it out yet.

Here's the thing, though.

This video is a bad video to have this discussion around because it's a modal video. There is no strong V chord. If the D chord was a B chord, it would be a better example.

 

[Spin Doctor]

+1 Didn't you know? You go to the crossroads at midnight on a certain night of the year, there is a mystical Raccoon who is waiting there, you give him some nice acorns, and he gives you all the theoretical knowledge you want for free, that's what I heard anyways

Yeah, man... I'm like seriously? People actually think it's some kinda magic?

 

[jfv]

As bass players we can get really caught up in the essentials of music and never really understand the one crucial part we usually don't get to do--- melody. I struggled for years with soloing until I studied with a sax player, who had me do nothing for many lessons but play melody, he would have me work thru a tune by working out a chordal structure on bass and keyboard and phrasing the melody properly. Knowledge can be an effective tool for soloing but if you cannot play a melody no body will ever listen.

This is exactly what Jaco said Bird will always be the
improvisational god to me, and he could do what he did
because he soaked up every melody he came across. His
solo's are full of melodic 'jokes'.

Cheers,

 

[dpbass66]

Charlie Parker is known to have said once...."learn all that s**t and then just forget it and play....". That may not be an exact quote, I am sure its not, but it has been attributed to him.

The thing learning improvisors need to understand is that music theory in the context of improvisation is just an academic tool to assist in organizing your thinking. Thats all it is. Making music is not music theory. That being said it is a bit cavalier to dismiss what generations of the best players have done....that is, use theory to not only dissect the music but to establish new approaches and generate new ideas. It is known that guys like Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Michael Brecker, John Patitucci, Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea and 100's of others not mentioned, all have a profound knowledge and command of theory.

IN the end though, I'll bet that none of those guys is thinking about scales, modes, or chords while playing. You do all that thinking in the practice room, how it comes out on the gig is an amalgam of, not only specifically the music theory you have practiced, but your TOTAL life's musical experience. For example, I have spent hours working on the application of one bebop lick in all 12 keys. It has never manifested itself in a solo on a gig ever, and that is not the point. The point is that, that particular lick does somehow influence my playing in a more sublime way. Michael Brecker once explained this same effect of practicing. He seems like a pretty reliable authority on improvising.. .

As previously noted, "melody" is probably one of the most important elements of good improv, but it too often gets lost on the learning improvisor. It may be good to start off with a melodic idea (or motif ..or theme..as we say). Then develop that idea.

Specifically, on the chord progression quoted above, which is in the key of G Major (I think from the OP), dont approach in any one singular way, but use many ways. You can play in Ionian and then choose another mode of G Major to transcend into a different sound. (I dont want to get technical here, but if you are in a Major key, playing in any given mode will evoke a different sound than playing in any of the other modes.....so, which one you choose DOES make a difference...AND if the harmony (chords) are changing, even just diatonically (ie within the same major key)....this will further compound the effect.

In Vic's video, he isnt (by a long shot) just "glossing" over the "key center". Further, when he and other great players play over an active harmony (more chord changes) they definitely dont just find the key center and hang around that. They may, as a part of their solo, use such an approach for a short brief period, but then they move on to other approaches.

SNARF had very good comments abovce take his advice.

As for bass solos, and bebop playing, I would recommend a terrific solo by Jeff Andrews on Mike Sterns studio recording of "Bait Tone Blues" (I cant recall the recording...sorry). Listen to this solo, over and over, listen to it slowed down, ALOT, transcribe it, get those licks under your hands. If you have the theoretical knowledge, analyze what he is doing. Of course, there are many Parker or Cannonball solos which are great sources for pure bebop playing, but this was done on the electric bass, and so it does offer a different level of inspiration.

 

[dpbass66]

...Ill add that the recommended recording of Jeff Andrew's solo is on basic 12 bar "F" blues...so it is perfect for analysis.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I totally agree with all you've said above. But the point that seems to be missed over and over is that you actually have to learn and internalize these different concepts before it shows up in your playing. I get annoyed how some people seem to think it just magically gets pulled outta your butt with no study or disipline. It's just ridiculous...

It's like when you were learning to speak as a child. It was pretty tough for the first few years, but since you practiced speaking nearly constantly, it became internalized and now you can speak without thinking about it. Or you can chose to think about it and say something really profound or at least not stupid.

Music to me is the exact same thing...

 

[dpbass66]

I totally agree with all you've said above. But the point that seems to be missed over and over is that you actually have to learn and internalize these different concepts before it shows up in your playing. I get annoyed how some people seem to think it just magically gets pulled outta your butt with no study or disipline. It's just ridiculous...

It's like when you were learning to speak as a child. It was pretty tough for the first few years, but since you practiced speaking nearly constantly, it became internalized and now you can speak without thinking about it. Or you can chose to think about it and say something really profound or at least not stupid.

Music to me is the exact same thing...

HUGE +1...if my post didnt convey this point, then heed it here.

Put another way, if you dont like improvising solos, or dont care to get good at it, then dont fool yourself into thinking it will ever happen, unless you are a glutton for punishment. It takes years of dedication and discipline and most importantly, DESIRE to achieve results. Like all other pursuits, every single person on the planet will achieve at a different rate and in a different way..... as some commercials say, "results will vary".

Per the previous post's last sentence, this applies to ALL aspects of making music.

 

[Skitch it!]

Charlie Parker is known to have said once...."learn all that s**t and then just forget it and play....". That may not be an exact quote, I am sure its not, but it has been attributed to him.

I totally agree with all you've said above. But the point that seems to be missed over and over is that you actually have to learn and internalize these different concepts before it shows up in your playing. I get annoyed how some people seem to think it just magically gets pulled outta your butt with no study or disipline. It's just ridiculous...

+1 with these.

As far as static modal tunes are concerned, I'd also be superimposing II V I's and other subs over a modal tune to give it a sense of chord structure and interest.

 

[Snarf]

Good posts above me.

Something I'd like to add is that I think people get caught up in modes when they should be getting caught up in CHORDS. In my opinion, it's much more useful if you're a beginner to arpeggiate every chord in a tune with every available diatonic tension in ever inversion, including starting inversions on tensions. Modes make you think horizantally which is okay, but I'd rather have students combine major scale phrasing exercises with lots of chordal studies (no I do NOT mean playing chords on bass), which integrates horizantal and vertical phrasing.

By the way, it's not like I hate all modes. Learning the modes strictly as an exercise is important. But when you're trying to improvise, they are at best a stepping stone, and at worst a stumbling block. I've seen people with potential just stick strictly to modal fumbling in functional harmony tunes for a long, long time because they refuse to get deep into chords, and most cripplingly they refuse to transcribe anything. THOSE are the real killers.

 

[dpbass66]

Yeah, gotta transcribe AND listen, almost obsessively. If you dont get the sound of what good playing means into your noggin' you have no frame of reference.

There was a thread on here going in the fall about modes vs. chords (at least thats where it ended up). I was defending modes because others were saying that they were essentially useless. I think a learning player has to learn and use both approaches. Its all the same notes, chords are just pulled out in intervals of thirds. If you listen to most modern improvising, it is very linear, not so intervallic. Bebop was more intervallic. The other reason I like learning modes is that is is an entre into learning other scale forms like dim, aug, hexatonic, pentatonic, all the minor forms, altered, etc. etc. Then you have the modes of the minor scales which offer some very interesting options. So, getting the student into the general concept of learning and ingesting a scale is good practice, IM-very-HO

 

[Skitch it!]

Good posts above me.

Something I'd like to add is that I think people get caught up in modes when they should be getting caught up in CHORDS. In my opinion, it's much more useful if you're a beginner to arpeggiate every chord in a tune with every available diatonic tension in ever inversion, including starting inversions on tensions. Modes make you think horizantally which is okay, but I'd rather have students combine major scale phrasing exercises with lots of chordal studies (no I do NOT mean playing chords on bass), which integrates horizantal and vertical phrasing.

By the way, it's not like I hate all modes. Learning the modes strictly as an exercise is important. But when you're trying to improvise, they are at best a stepping stone, and at worst a stumbling block. I've seen people with potential just stick strictly to modal fumbling in functional harmony tunes for a long, long time because they refuse to get deep into chords, and most cripplingly they refuse to transcribe anything. THOSE are the real killers.

I understand what your saying, it can get to a point of seeing the neck as a grid and feeling constricted to pattern rather than intuitive freedom of choice. I will say the way I practised modes included arpeggiating them over 1/2 octaves and playing the inversions of, as a way to open them up chorally and get away from the horizontal harmony thinking, also by playing them in partials to avoid the 'root' syndrome, using chromatic tension/approach notes, sequences et al.

I've found for fast memory work and learning lines by ear, they have come into their own in that way, they lend to a memory of particular pattern which, for my type of work years back was a big plus. I also use them to find key centres in tracks I'm working on. They have pluses, but shouldn't be relied upon as an answer to everything.

I think your approach as you related is more of what I'm familiar with in classical training, where the approach is more intervallic/chordal than thought in scalar form. A girlfriend of mine was classically trained from age 7, so I got a close insight into what the approach is in classical training/harmony, more based on key centres and intervallic thinking than scales, which is another way Willis looks at harmony, by identifying and working within key centres, especially over changes.

Both approaches have their benefits, being 'stuck' in modes can be more of a pitfall, but I would put that choice down to the individual player more than the theory behind it, it's how you use it, to find your voice imo.

 

[JTE]

The chords Am, Bm, Em and D. They're all diatonic to the key of G, being the ii, the iii, the vi, and the V. So you COULD use A Dorian, then B Phrygian, then E Aeolian, then D Mixolydian. But what would be the point of looking at each chord as a separate entity, when they're functioning together as part of a larger key center? That's why thinking of them all in the key of G and noting the chord tones as your targets is more important than the modes. It's a much more direct path to the same notes, and a tidier way to organize the information. Note that for soloing however, neither approach should be construed to be "only use these notes"- the point of knowing the chords is that for the Bm you know the chord is B D F A, you know the B and F are the tones that make it a B chord, and the F is what makes it minor. Using those as your target tones keeps you in the chord (or avoiding them keeps you outside if that's what you want) but in the right context, with the right resolution, and at the right time, you can use ANY other note there is over that chord.

Two key points espoused here that I want to reiterate- First, soloing needs to be about melody at its heart. The chords and scales are simply pallets of choices, but you need to make a melody instead of running arpeggios and calling it a solo (or slapping a bunch of chord tones, or ripping off the scale as fast as you can with massive distortion and a rock star pose). So to get good at soloing, learn to play melody on bass- learn the bass lines, but also learn horn lines, vocal parts, etc. LISTEN to great melodies- and outside of The Beatles, most rock music isn't really a good source- dig into jazz standards (there's a good reason they're called "standards"), listen to great vocalists who SING songs- like Sinatra, Gladys Knight, Ella Fitzgerald, etc. Listen to great soloists (which unfortunately excludes almost all bassists and most guitarists- the only really really good melodic solo I've ever heard on electric bass is by Abe Laboriel on a live Larry Carlton recording of "Rio Samba"). And outside of Joe Pass, Mike Stern, and Duane Allman, don't cop ideas from guitarists at first either. Instead listen to Roy Eldridge, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Coleman Hawkins, etc.

Second, the quote attributed to Charlie Parker ("learn all that **** then forget it and play"- something I read in a History of Jazz class I took WAY back in 1976 which also attributed it to Parker) is vital. Parker know chords and arpeggios inside and out. He's spend hours a day running chords and inversions. But that's background for soloing, it's not the soloing. It's merely fodder. By working on this stuff your fingers and ears get used to working with each other and so if your ear hears a run, your fingers know where to go to get that sound. But it's not a process where you're thinking "now play that D dorian lick I practiced, then I need to slip in the F#min7 arpeggio over this D9 chord..."

So the best way to work out a solo (it's slow and hard, but you wanna be good or just talk about being good?) is this.

Record what you're going to be soloing over. Lock up your bass so you can't touch it. LISTEN to the section you want to solo over. Listen again. And again. A lot. Like 20 times in a row, just LISTEN to it. Then sing what you think sounds like a good solo. Even if you sing like I do (once described as "a duet with Linda McCartney and Yoko Ono") sing the solo that your soul hears for that piece of music. Record what you sang. THAT'S your voice.

NOW, and only now, get out your bass and learn EXACTLY what you sang. Don't try to "improve" it, don't dumb it down to make it flow more easily on the instrument, and don't embellish. Learn the exact ways you phrased it, how you held some notes just a touch more than others, how you altered the dynamics, the flow of the solo, etc. Make your bass sing not just play the notes.

THEN sit down and analyze what you played- so you can see that part that sounded really cool was because you played three notes of the arpeggio, played one that was unexpected then resolved it to a chord tone, etc.

Do the same analysis with solos you cop from other players.

Then you'll be able to solo well and not be the kind of soloist who bores other musicians (and the general public) to the point that they hate all bass solos...

John

 

[dpbass66]

+1 to JTE.

Identify the difference between "the learning process" and the "making music process". They can be quite dissimilar. I really like and recommend the "play what YOU HEAR IN YOUR head exercise". Sometimes I do it such that I sing a short phrase to myself (not necessarily a whole solo, but thats cool too..), then just play it on the bass. You'll find a very surprising and interesting difference between what your inner voice sings and where you've trained your pattern loving, fingerboard thinking and oriented fingers want to go. It is very truth telling. As JTE said, write out those things you sing, learn them, ingest them as what YOU hear and want to sound like so you can play them on the bass.

Great post JTE.

 

[dpbass66]

Old grumpy bass player guy comment.....I'll add that I wish I had this advice and the resource of TB when I was young and learning!

("Why, back in the day, I had to walk to 17 miles to school in barefeet in the snow".....blah, blah...)

 

[Skitch it!]

I agree with the posts above, learning and finally absorbing and utilising to the point of subconsciousness is the prize imo. That comes through more than just theory, but you do have to explore and uptake all these tonalities/ideas and internalise them to the point where it's 'unthinking'. The way Coltrane could blow solo's over 45mins and take it anywhere he wanted, no constriction, on the spot realisation and hearing before you play it, that's freedom to the point of having your very own language, quite something, can take a lifetime.

The only guy I can think of whom achieved this kind of improvisational freedom untrained/unschooled self taught was Wes Montgomery, who seemingly had it in the genetic code, quite rare.

Interesting stuff ; )

 

[JTE]

+1 to JTE.

Identify the difference between "the learning process" and the "making music process". They can be quite dissimilar. I really like and recommend the "play what YOU HEAR IN YOUR head exercise". Sometimes I do it such that I sing a short phrase to myself (not necessarily a whole solo, but thats cool too..), then just play it on the bass. You'll find a very surprising and interesting difference between what your inner voice sings and where you've trained your pattern loving, fingerboard thinking and oriented fingers want to go. It is very truth telling. As JTE said, write out those things you sing, learn them, ingest them as what YOU hear and want to sound like so you can play them on the bass.

Great post JTE.

Now, if I could only follow my OWN advice regularly.... You young punks, do as I say, not as I do. It'll be a lot more fun and you'll be able to really play instead of spending too much time typing stuff into TB!

John

 

[ripman3]

I'm loving this thread. Especially because it is based on soloing over Dave Matthews, an incredibly important skill all bassists must learn.

 

[dpbass66]

do I detect a touch of sarcasm in that last post? hmmm. if so, i'll bet all us who have poured a good deal of time and knowledge into responding to the OP might be a bit offended.

...but, I digress, I'll bet the last post was nothing but sincere. REALLY, you want nothing more than to understand how to avoid looking like a complete fool the next time the bandleader points to you for a solo on Mustang Sally...right?

If you really ARE loving this thread I retract all MY sarcasm, and apologize profusely.

 

[anonymous122511]

Something I'd like to add is that I think people get caught up in modes when they should be getting caught up in CHORDS.

AMEN!!!
Players for whom scales are the main focus of their practice always sound like they're running scales. Players who focus on chords and arpeggiated patterns sound like they understand harmonic structure. If you're gonna practice scales the way they are laid out in Ray Brown's Bass Method is a good approach.

"Patterns For Jazz" for bass clef instruments by Coker, Cassale, Campbell and Greene is a great book for getting you comfortable soloing in all keys. Don't let the "For Jazz" scare you off. All the information easily relates to any genre. It's also very straightforward and uncomplicated....everything in it relates to making music right now so it doesn't seem too complicated or abstract. Play though it and you will learn by musical effort rather than brain numbing explanation.

 

[Skitch it!]

If you practise modes, imo and the tutors that taught me modes, the way out of 'running scales' is to practise them arpeggiated, in 3rd's, 4th's, 5th's, 6th's, and 7th's, the inversions, the 3 scale patterns that are available for the same scale and each of them, over 2 octaves, 4 note skips, in all keys, then you have a start before the next set of approaches to modes.