Learning to read standard notation: hand positions?

[Ric5]

Wasn't sure if this was a general instruction question or notation/tab...
...hopefully I am in the right place.

I want to learn to read standard notation, and have the Hal Leonard books 1-3. Plenty willing to put-in time, but wondering about the 1-2-4 fingering system, with "positions" where your fingers only cover 3 frets. While a bit harder on the low frets, I always tried to cover 4 frets. "Back in the day", I played exclusively by ear, and always covered 4 frets.

Question: When learning to "read", is it important to use the 3-fret positions, or do some people use positions that cover 4 frets on the low frets?

Background: I'm an "old geezer" getting back into bass for fun. Played for years off/on since teens, but never professionally. Read on clarinet and sax when young, but never good at sight-reading. Self-taught reading on bass enough for playing standard-notation from hand-written bass parts provided by group lead for a few months 35 years ago (damn!) , but I developed my own self-taught "positions" covering 4 frets. Never took lessons. Was cheap, and this was pre-internet.

Only covering 3 frets feels "wrong", but I realize it is a "stretch" on the low frets to cover 4. Candid advice is most welcome!

THIS IS A CLASSIC PROBLEM

in the end you have to decide which fingering works for you. A lot of this will depend on hand size and the scale of bass that you play. For instance a person with lumber jack huge hands playing a 30" scale bass will finger differently than a person with small hands playing a 34" scale.

 

[TedH]

Even players who use 1-2-3-4 as their default left hand technique it who frequently revert to 1-2-4 in low positions when playing stuff that does not need 1-2-3-4 such as fifths or octaves: those are much more comfortably played with 1-4 than 1-3.

This. When I learned to read again, my instructors all pounded “economy of motion” into our heads (Berkeley Bass Dept). Get to the note quickly and cleanly. We spent exactly -0- minutes talking about 1 finger per fret. Your finger dexterity is (often greatly) enhanced by using the 4 (pinky) for octaves and 5ths: for a 1-8-5 progression, fingers 1-4-3.
So focus on economy of motion. 1 finger per fret is a guideline; not a rule. Only rule is “if it sounds good, do it; if it doesn’t, don’t”.

 

[SteveCS]

...
...
in the end you have to decide which fingering works for you.
...

Which ultimately means learning and exploring all positions and fingerings to the poing of understanding which options are available and how they work in various contexts. You can't reject something if you don't even know it exists.

 

[g-dude]

You should totally use the three finger positions and map the notes to them.

Then, you should learn the same notes in different positions using three fingers.

You should also learn them using one finger per fret.

In other words, you need to learn to read all over the place, BUT...when you’re starting to learn to read, focus on picking a spot for each note, and then once you are fluent, learn about moving around to hit the same notes.

 

[chilensko]

I think the key point of sight reading is that you need to be able to do it on the spot and if you make a mistake don’t stop just keep going. With time is going to become very natural. Is you have the chance to play with an ensamble or Big Bang that’s better because of a he pressure factor.
I’m grateful with my bass teacher who forced me to read just rhythms on open strings in my beginning but he had to rules :100 BPM and no stops if mistaken. In a couple of months I was reading two or three pages of cool rhythms exercises.

 

[Altitude]

Even players who use 1-2-3-4 as their default left hand technique it who frequently revert to 1-2-4 in low positions when playing stuff that does not need 1-2-3-4 such as fifths or octaves: those are much more comfortably played with 1-4 than 1-3.

+1. Also, in what would be called "first position" on a bass guitar, your 4th finger in a 1-2-3-4 approach is on the IV, which is the next open string anyway and therefore less than totally useful.

 

[Wasnex]

Wasn't sure if this was a general instruction question or notation/tab...
...hopefully I am in the right place.

I want to learn to read standard notation, and have the Hal Leonard books 1-3. Plenty willing to put-in time, but wondering about the 1-2-4 fingering system, with "positions" where your fingers only cover 3 frets. While a bit harder on the low frets, I always tried to cover 4 frets. "Back in the day", I played exclusively by ear, and always covered 4 frets.

Question: When learning to "read", is it important to use the 3-fret positions, or do some people use positions that cover 4 frets on the low frets?

Background: I'm an "old geezer" getting back into bass for fun. Played for years off/on since teens, but never professionally. Read on clarinet and sax when young, but never good at sight-reading. Self-taught reading on bass enough for playing standard-notation from hand-written bass parts provided by group lead for a few months 35 years ago (damn!) , but I developed my own self-taught "positions" covering 4 frets. Never took lessons. Was cheap, and this was pre-internet.

Only covering 3 frets feels "wrong", but I realize it is a "stretch" on the low frets to cover 4. Candid advice is most welcome!

If you already use one finger per fret (OFPF), why are you trying to used a three finger approach? If the lessons tell you to use the wrong fingering for your technique, simply pencil in the correct fingering.

There are upright bass method books that use 1,2,4, and others that use 1,3,4. You don't change your technique just because you get a new book; change all of the 3s to 2s.

I started using Simandl fingering 1,3,4 and used it for 10-15 years. A few years after turning pro I was playing quite a bit of fast technical music, and it was becoming more and more apparent that I would benefit from using OFPF. I used OFPF about 95% of the time, and revert back to Simandl when spacing and patterns don't work well with OFPF. There is also a hybrid was of approaching this problem where you use four fingers with microshifts to avoid hyper-extending your hand. This approach creates different fingering patterns.


The place where I am most likely to have problems with OFPF is playing certain minor patterns on the B string. My bass is a 6-string Yamaha TRB6P with a 34" scale and 19mm string spacing, so it's quite a reach to play the B string. I rarely have any problems on the other five strings.

 

[iiipopes]

Wasn't sure if this was a general instruction question or notation/tab...
...hopefully I am in the right place.

I want to learn to read standard notation, and have the Hal Leonard books 1-3. Plenty willing to put-in time, but wondering about the 1-2-4 fingering system, with "positions" where your fingers only cover 3 frets. While a bit harder on the low frets, I always tried to cover 4 frets. "Back in the day", I played exclusively by ear, and always covered 4 frets.

The traditional 1-2-4 fingering and position techniques are out of the standard double bass instruction book by Simandl.
https://www.amazon.com/O492-Method-...t=&hvlocphy=9060613&hvtargid=pla-450582743224

 

[devnulljp]

I learned to read music with a upright bass book called Simandl. It was very helpful cause you go through positions. The first position is call half position (funny name) which is the F.
On the upright you use only three fingers and the book comes with that notation but you can adapt it for four fingers.

I tried playing upright like that with only 3 fingers and just couldn't make it work -- so used to 1-2-3-4 . I don't have big hands but strong and flexible I guess.

 

[75Ric]

Even players who use 1-2-3-4 as their default left hand technique it who frequently revert to 1-2-4 in low positions when playing stuff that does not need 1-2-3-4 such as fifths or octaves: those are much more comfortably played with 1-4 than 1-3.

This is what I have been taught and do. In general, it's Simandl (1-2-4 or 1-4) below the 5th/6th fret and one finger per fret above.

 

[BassFalcon]

A misconception about 124 and 1234 fingering is that your left hand is somehow locked in place and all left hand motion "in a postion" is forbidden. After seeing both Ray Brown and Rocco Prestia live I saw the truth: You are allowed to move your left hand to reach the note. Using your thumb on the back of the neck as a reference point, you can slide up and make 124 span 4 (or 5) frets as needed. Anchoring your left hand and spidering your fingers uncomfortably is unnecessary.



wisdom!

Another benefit of pivoting is that instead of squeezing you can use the torque generated in your left forearm with the thumb on the back of the neck as the fulcrum, thereby transferring the load of pressing the strings down from tiny muscles in your hands to larger muscles in your arms. Increasing both comfort and efficiency.
To the OP; the 1-2-3+4 fingering is a double bass thing. In the lower positions of double bass the intervals are very wide and the strings stiff. Your 3rd and 4th fingers are actually connected to the same tendon, which is why they aren’t completely independent. In the double bass world you use this to your advantage by combining them and fingering things 1-2-3+4. In the electric bass world the intervals are shorter and strings much more supple so it’s easier to do 1-2-3-4 or what’s called one finger per fret. Pivoting as mentioned above a means your doing one finger per fret but also rotating on your thumb to reach a little higher and a little lower and gaining the torque benefits mentioned above. On electric bass there is no right way. Each way has its advantages and disadvantages. Try one finger per fret to get a handle on reading stuff then branch out. I will often use the double bass 1-2-3+4 to conserve energy when doing blues boxes and a lot of root-fifth-octave stuff. If I need to cover a lot of ground then pivoting is the technique to use. Best of luck and have fun!

 

[Wasnex]

Another thing I did not mention. The naming of the positions is not consistent between different methods; so if you are using different methdd books, you may need to figure out which position naming convention is used. Again I suggest using the position naming convention you are used to, and penciling in the position you understand4.

Early in my training I learned the Simandl positions. Now when I am playing, I no longer really think in terms of positions. Instead I think directly of the notes under my fingers. I think the biggest value for using position names is it creates a vocabulary so teacher and student can communicate more effectively.

Here's a video you may find useful:

 

[Wasnex]

Another benefit of pivoting is that instead of squeezing you can use the torque generated in your left forearm with the thumb on the back of the neck as the fulcrum, thereby transferring the load of pressing the strings down from tiny muscles in your hands to larger muscles in your arms. Increasing both comfort and efficiency.
To the OP; the 1-2-3+4 fingering is a double bass thing. In the lower positions of double bass the intervals are very wide and the strings stiff. Your 3rd and 4th fingers are actually connected to the same tendon, which is why they aren’t completely independent. In the double bass world you use this to your advantage by combining them and fingering things 1-2-3+4. In the electric bass world the intervals are shorter and strings much more supple so it’s easier to do 1-2-3-4 or what’s called one finger per fret. Pivoting as mentioned above a means your doing one finger per fret but also rotating on your thumb to reach a little higher and a little lower and gaining the torque benefits mentioned above. On electric bass there is no right way. Each way has its advantages and disadvantages. Try one finger per fret to get a handle on reading stuff then branch out. I will often use the double bass 1-2-3+4 to conserve energy when doing blues boxes and a lot of root-fifth-octave stuff. If I need to cover a lot of ground then pivoting is the technique to use. Best of luck and have fun!

An idea used in the upright community is arm weighting and engaging your core. The idea is you don't really pinch the string between your thumb and fingers. Instead the wrist should be straight and the force should come all the way from your back to your arched finger tips. Ideally you want to use as little pinching pressure with the thumb as possible. To me the slight friction from the thumb lightly touch the back of the neck provides lateral stability more so than helping to depress the strings to the frets.

Also, consider this: As I play to the 12th fret and above, the thumb actually begins to pivot under the neck, and at some point it may be slightly in front of the finger board. Also at some point in this approximate range it becomes increasingly difficult to use the 4th finger to fret notes on the lower strings because it is too short, so at some point I use 1,2,3 to cover four frets. This is similiar to thumb position on upright bass. I don't remember having to do this on my Ric 4001, but it's definitely necessary on my TRBP.

 

[lermgalieu]

I think you should not much care for fingerings indicated in sight reading books. First, invent your own fingering that works for you.

This is marginally ok advice for electric bass but terrible advice for upright bass.

 

[AGCurry]

I learned to read music with a upright bass book called Simandl. It was very helpful cause you go through positions. The first position is call half position (funny name) which is the F.
On the upright you use only three fingers and the book comes with that notation but you can adapt it for four fingers.

Simandl is actually Franz Simandl, who was the father of double-bass pedagogy. The Simandl book 1 provides lots of exercises and etudes written in standard notation with fingerings given. Sometimes these fingerings are authoritative, sometimes they are suggestions, and sometimes we're given a choice of one way or the other.

Some of the method is over the top for bass guitar, because BG is just ... dare I say it? ... easier. Regardless, if you are looking to learn to associate sightreading with fingerings, you can't do much better.

 

[BassFalcon]

This is marginally ok advice for electric bass but terrible advice for upright bass.

Right? Why bother re-inventing things that have already been figured out in several different but successful ways. Stand on the shoulders of giants.

 

[BassFalcon]

An idea used in the upright community is arm weighting and engaging your core. The idea is you don't really pinch the string between your thumb and fingers. Instead the wrist should be straight and the force should come all the way from your back to your arched finger tips. Ideally you want to use as little pinching pressure with the thumb as possible. To me the slight friction from the thumb lightly touch the back of the neck provides lateral stability more so than helping to depress the strings to the frets.

Also, consider this: As I play to the 12th fret and above, the thumb actually begins to pivot under the neck, and at some point it may be slightly in front of the finger board. Also at some point in this approximate range it becomes increasingly difficult to use the 4th finger to fret notes on the lower strings because it is too short, so at some point I use 1,2,3 to cover four frets. This is similiar to thumb position on upright bass. I don't remember having to do this on my Ric 4001, but it's definitely necessary on my TRBP.

You’re speaking my language brother. I come from the Rabbath school of thought, even got the angled endpin to prove it, haha. Started on Simandl in high school but my professor in college got me on the Rabbath train.

 

[lermgalieu]

Right? Why bother re-inventing things that have already been figured out in several different but successful ways. Stand on the shoulders of giants.

Right, and avoid injuries. If you are new to a craft, you shouldn't be the one inventing the rules. Go ahead and break the rules all you want, but learn what they are first.

EDIT: This is coming from someone (me) who thought he could teach himself double bass and ended up with a bad back problem that made me have to stop all activity for a month. Then I got a teacher and learned how to properly stand and grip the thing (let alone fingering).

 

[BarfanyShart]

When reading music, while the notes are mostly non-negotiable, the fingerings are just suggestions.

 

[AGCurry]

When reading music, while the notes are mostly non-negotiable, the fingerings are just suggestions.

Yes, when reading music, we must get the job done however we can. But the original post involved questions about learning - associating hand positions/fingerings with music notation. If we're going to play from sheet music, we must develop physical habits (muscle memory, if you will) which allow us to put our fingers where they belong without thinking.

Part of preparing any piece of music for practice is working out the fingerings so that we hit all the notes smoothly. Written fingerings usually make sense, but sometimes I'll choose to play it otherwise because it's easier for me. Easy is good.