Double Bass Left thumb pain

[bramvdhoeven]

I've been playing upright for about 8 months right now, it's going well.
When I play walking bass lines for more than 5 minutes straight, my left thumb starts to hurt. With songs that have more rests in between the notes this happens much less, it's the consistent motion that's hardest to maintain.
I've noticed I tense up easily, and can start to squeeze my left hand.
I want to be able to play long sets in the future, and am worried this won't go away.
I might have wanted to go too fast in my development picking up speed, power and consistency. I hope I have not damaged my thumb. Have other players had similar experiences, and how did you solve the problem?

 

[crd]

Do you have a teacher? Tell them.

Don't tense your hand. I know it sounds impossible (how do you hold a note down with a relaxed hand? How do you keep the bass from sliding away etc etc but it's doable.) Don't practice bad habits. Whenever your hand tenses up, stop playing and relax and reset. Start playing again.

It can be helpful to use a stool so you don't have to support the bass. There is no need to use a stool, it can just give you the right feeling in the right hand if you are habitual squeezing the neck. But really to help you further you need to work with a teacher.

 

[garrett2]

Whenever you get tense breathe. Work breathing into your practice.

 

[bramvdhoeven]

Yes, I've been working on it with my teacher. No easy answers. we've been working on a relaxed thumb position and maintaining proper posture. I have been having some back pain as well.

I will keep stopping myself when I get tense from now on.

Whenever you get tense breathe. Work breathing into your practice.

Point taken, will do.

Relaxation and breathing, got it.

 

[DrCannabass]

When I sit on a low stool the bass is supported by both my legs, so I can take my left thumb off the back of the neck while working on fingering exercises to get that feel for the arm weight doing all the work.

Then try to recreate that feel standing up. Takes time and practice, I'm still practicing

 

[Wasnex]

It takes time t0 develop the necessary strength, technique, and control.

Strength probably does not need much of an explanation. You use your muscles and hopefully they get stronger. Keep in mind, it's important to avoid overusing your muscles, so you do not incur a debilitating injury.

Technique: Part of the problem may be you are using the pincher technique...essentially pinching the neck and string between your thumb and fingers. As you become more proficient, you will learn to use arm weight/pulling from the core. The idea is to engage larger muscles and let gravity help rather than pinching. Ideally the thumb just adds a bit of stability to your hand rather than apply a counter force to your fingers. Eventually you will probably be able to play with your thumb just lightly gliding across the wood.

Control: Playing an instrument uses a lot of different muscles. All of them have to be coordinated to work together efficiently. Many muscles work in pairs. One muscle closes the joint and the other opens the joint. Ideally the correct muscles uses the optimum tension to close the joint and the opposing muscles are not significantly engaged.

Early in your development, there is a tendency to use more strength than is required. There is also a tendency to clench. By clench I mean you apply too much force with the muscles that close the joint, and you simultaneously apply to much force with the muscles that open the joint. So rather than just countering the force that presses up from the string, your hand is essentially fighting with itself.

Clenching can lead quickly to involuntary cramps where muscles apply the maximum force they are capable of (very painful).

Eventually you develop the fine motor control necessary for opposing muscles work in harmony to apply only the necessary force.

These concepts sound very simple, but learning to play efficiently takes lots of practice. In other words you have to study and practice playing efficiently. Even after you figure it out, you will most likely need to dedicate time to maintaining efficient technique.

 

[Ketbass]

I’ll throw in - how old are you? I started playing upright at 58. Already saddled with arthritis and hand injuries of past. This instrument does not make that any easier on the body. But as Wasnex says you will develop muscle memory and technique to relax. I have. Still have pain in places and walking a line in Gb doesn’t help, but fortunately there aren’t to many tunes my group plays in thy key and they’re nice enough to put them at the beginning of the set list. Also, open strings are ok on upright as opposed to EB. My 2 cents. Carry on!!

 

[bramvdhoeven]

When I sit on a low stool the bass is supported by both my legs, so I can take my left thumb off the back of the neck while working on fingering exercises to get that feel for the arm weight doing all the work.

Then try to recreate that feel standing up. Takes time and practice, I'm still practicing

very helpful answer, will try that

 

[bramvdhoeven]

It takes time t0 develop the necessary strength, technique, and control.

Strength probably does not need much of an explanation. You use your muscles and hopefully they get stronger. Keep in mind, it's important to avoid overusing your muscles, so you do not incur a debilitating injury.

Technique: Part of the problem may be you are using the pincher technique...essentially pinching the neck and string between your thumb and fingers. As you become more proficient, you will learn to use arm weight/pulling from the core. The idea is to engage larger muscles and let gravity help rather than pinching. Ideally the thumb just adds a bit of stability to your hand rather than apply a counter force to your fingers. Eventually you will probably be able to play with your thumb just lightly gliding across the wood.

Control: Playing an instrument uses a lot of different muscles. All of them have to be coordinated to work together efficiently. Many muscles work in pairs. One muscle closes the joint and the other opens the joint. Ideally the correct muscles uses the optimum tension to close the joint and the opposing muscles are not significantly engaged.

Early in your development, there is a tendency to use more strength than is required. There is also a tendency to clench. By clench I mean you apply too much force with the muscles that close the joint, and you simultaneously apply to much force with the muscles that open the joint. So rather than just countering the force that presses up from the string, your hand is essentially fighting with itself.

Clenching can lead quickly to involuntary cramps where muscles apply the maximum force they are capable of (very painful).

Eventually you develop the fine motor control necessary for opposing muscles work in harmony to apply only the necessary force.

These concepts sound very simple, but learning to play efficiently takes lots of practice. In other words you have to study and practice playing efficiently. Even after you figure it out, you will most likely need to dedicate time to maintaining efficient technique.

These are all great answers. I'm pretty sure everything I need to know right now is covered. I'll get on it today!

 

[BassFalcon]

It could also be how you are standing, i.e. you don’t need to hold the bass up with your hand. If your stance is good the bass will rest against your stomach in some way. What a lot of beginners do is try and support the bass with their thumb and it results in this sort of clenching and pain. I’m a fan of the Rabbath style endpin, or a bent endpin. This helps the bass fall into the body, freeing the left hand from having to support it, playing seated can do this as well. The other thing it does (shout out to @Wasnex) is by leaning the fingerboard back it makes it easier to use arm weight instead of pinching. As an exercise try playing without your left thumb.

 

[Bruce Calin]

A lot of good advice here. The only thing I would emphasize is that you should not be thinking about power at this stage. Concentrate on all of the other parts of good technique and do not worry about getting a big sound. That will come with time and practice but do not force anything. Just work on generating a clear sound and play softly and with maximum relaxation and listen to how your bass responds instead of trying to play loud.

 

[Jason Sypher]

This may be difficult to explain online but consider this. Your curved fingers should push down the strings, on or near the finger tips. Think of you fingers as vertical hammers coming down on the string. These should use the minimum effort it takes to make a clear note, no wasted pressure. The role of the thumb is more guidance and stability than pressure. When pressing down the strings think of what your hand might do if you were hanging on a window ledge. Your fingers were udo be curved, your arms and shoulders would be engaged. Your thumb would not be used. Put your hand on the bass now in that “window ledge” position over the strings. Now pull back with your shoulder, as if pulling back the string of an archery bow. The bass will naturally pull in against your body. This will give you the leverage to push the strings into the fingerboard. Then after you can feel that relationship only then add the thumb for guidance and support. This is basically the Streicher Method.

 

[chilensko]

Check at 6.35
Play with the less amount of pressure.
This is a great advice…took me years to discover it.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

All good advice but no one has mentioned lowering and using lighter gauge strings. I've been playing 50 years now and if my setup changes just a bit to make it harder, I feel it in my tendons. Happened last night with a new set of heavier gauge strings and my string height a bit higher than usual. Painful left thumb. It's helpful to take the built in stressors out of the instrument as much as possible.

 

[LouisF]

Don’t Choke the Chicken ‹ John Clayton Jazz

 

[Bruce Calin]

All good advice but no one has mentioned lowering and using lighter gauge strings. I've been playing 50 years now and if my setup changes just a bit to make it harder, I feel it in my tendons. Happened last night with a new set of heavier gauge strings and my string height a bit higher than usual. Painful left thumb. It's helpful to take the built in stressors out of the instrument as much as possible.

Very good point. This is one of the things your teacher could and should help you with if something needs attention. A few tweaks can make the instrument much more playable. Sometimes it means a trip to the luthier but it's worth it. It's frustrating but very common for a student to come in with an unplayable bass. You need to do what's necessary to at least make the instrument of whatever quality as comfortably playable as possible.

 

[turf3]

Well, I'm going to be the one that points out the nature of the emperor's suit.

The use of the term "arm weight" is bogus for the majority of bass players who play bass in a near-vertical position. In that position, gravity pulls your arm and hand down toward the FLOOR, not back against the fingerboard. As near as I can tell, what's actually meant is "pull back against the fingerboard with the big muscles in your upper back." OK, that's fine; but I don't know how "weight" got into it. The terms "weight" and "gravity" have actual meanings and "a force exerted by the muscles of the upper back more or less parallel to the surface of the earth" ain't it.

Now let's talk about pulling back with the muscles of the upper back. In lower positions (physically higher up, further from the floor), this ain't gonna happen either. Why? Well, because if you pull back against the fingerboard at the top of the neck, one of two things will happen, maybe both at the same time. 1) Because the bass is only constrained in the middle where it presses against your belly, and at the floor where the end pin (rubber foot, usually) sits on the floor, the thing's gonna wave all over the place in the breeze. 2) Because you're pulling backward at the top of the neck, the end pin is going to be pushing forward against the floor (anyone ever hear of Newton's Laws of Motion - equal and opposite forces?) and if it's not a new real sticky rubber foot, it's going to slide out from under the bass. So what really has to happen in low positions is that you're going to have to exert force with your thumb to - at least partially, or mostly - counteract the forces applied by your fingers. Yeah, you can put a little force on your fingers from the upper back, reducing the force exerted by the thumb, but get too excessive here and the bass is going to wave all over the place.

What really happens, in my opinion, is that experienced bass players apply considerable force with their thumb on the back of the neck but they've built up the necessary muscles (the thumb is very strong in that direction) and they don't put any more force than required. So they're playing efficiently; but the gravitational force of the earth is not involved to any meaningful extent.

Now in the higher positions, the vertical distance between where your belly touches the bass and where your hand is, is much reduced so the resulting reaction force at the end pin is correspondingly much reduced; and then you really can get the muscles of the upper back into play. And if you play sitting with the bass fully constrained and more nearly horizontal, then the gravitational force of the earth can assist in stopping the strings. But for normal near-vertical playing and in low positions, I respectfully submit that "arm weight" is a gross misnomer.

I would dearly love to put a force transducer under the thumbs of some expert players who claim they play without thumb force and see the actual measurements, playing let's say a bunch of half position stuff in the key of F or Eb. I bet you'd find that if it takes 15 lbs to stop the string, they're applying 1 lb with the muscles of the upper back, 14.001 lb with the thumb, and not an ounce more than needed.

 

[Bruce Calin]

turf3,
I believe you and some of the others replying here don't quite understand what's involved with the minimum thumb concept. Pulling back against the neck is not it at all. The idea, as best I can describe it, involves using the weight of your arm to hold your finger(s) against the string. It's an idea that takes a little thought and practice to get comfortable with, but once you get the feel for it you see that it makes sense. Your left arm does not "pull" back, it "hangs" on the neck from your fingers at roughly a 45 degree angle to the neck. Your arm is more or less straight from the elbow. Your shoulder and back muscles supply the energy to your arm and fingers, they don't actively pull back. If you need some support from your thumb, you apply as much as necessary but never with the idea of squeezing.If you have a properly adjusted nut and comfortable string height this is as fatigue-free as your technique allows. This assumes of course that other aspects of your technique are efficient and correct. I've been playing the bass professionally for over 55 years with no serious arm or hand issues so I know this concept works if properly applied. I've played mostly standing with a straight endpin. It's very much a mental thing as well as physical IMO.

 

[Don Kasper]

I would dearly love to put a force transducer under the thumbs of some expert players who claim they play without thumb force and see the actual measurements, playing let's say a bunch of half position stuff in the key of F or Eb. I bet you'd find that if it takes 15 lbs to stop the string, they're applying 1 lb with the muscles of the upper back, 14.001 lb with the thumb, and not an ounce more than needed.

You win the TB/Internet today.(This Month?)
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment here.
Telling a student to NOT use ANY, or a minuscule amount of, Thumb pressure is a horrible idea shrouded in Mystery and VooDoo. The ideal is for the Left Hand to be supple enough & responsive enough & strong enough, to use just enough "pressure" to accurately stop the string, and the Thumb MUST be part (50%) of that force. (Because PHYSICS.)
Also, too - the Left Hand functions much like a C-Clamp (Yeah, I said it...) and the force/pressure is split evenly (50/50) between the Thumb and Finger(s). Hopefully the user is using an appropriately sized C-Clamp.
IMFO, of course, as always.
Phun Topic!

 

[turf3]

turf3,
I believe you and some of the others replying here don't quite understand what's involved with the minimum thumb concept. Pulling back against the neck is not it at all. The idea, as best I can describe it, involves using the weight of your arm to hold your finger(s) against the string. It's an idea that takes a little thought and practice to get comfortable with, but once you get the feel for it you see that it makes sense. Your left arm does not "pull" back, it "hangs" on the neck from your fingers at roughly a 45 degree angle to the neck. Your arm is more or less straight from the elbow. Your shoulder and back muscles supply the energy to your arm and fingers, they don't actively pull back. If you need some support from your thumb, you apply as much as necessary but never with the idea of squeezing.If you have a properly adjusted nut and comfortable string height this is as fatigue-free as your technique allows. This assumes of course that other aspects of your technique are efficient and correct. I've been playing the bass professionally for over 55 years with no serious arm or hand issues so I know this concept works if properly applied. I've played mostly standing with a straight endpin. It's very much a mental thing as well as physical IMO.

But if you're playing with the bass roughly vertical - let's say inclined back 10 degrees or so, like most people who play standing - the force of gravity pulls your arm down toward the FLOOR. How does that help in stopping the string?

If you're really not pulling back against the strings, and you're really not clamping down with your fingers and thumb, then it's only friction of your fingers and thumb against the neck that keeps your hand from sliding clear down against the neck heel. Obviously that doesn't happen. SOMETHING that's not gravity is pushing your fingers against the strings. That something is some muscles in your body. I sugges that it's a combination of the small muscles in the forearm that contract the fingers, and the large muscles in the upper arm and upper back that pull the whole thing back against the neck. The angle between your arm and the neck doesn't matter, the gravitational field of the earth still pulls that arm down toward the floor.

Now sure, if you angle the bass much further back, say 45 degrees or so, NOW there's a component of the gravitational force that's perpendicular to the neck and big enough to do something. But again, most bass players play standing with the neck fairly close to vertical. Leaning the bass way back like that introduces other challenges in fixturing it so it doesn't wobble all over the place when you DO let the actual weight of your arm help in stopping strings.

I'm going to maintain that Newton's laws are still in force.

 

[Tom Lane]

You win the TB/Internet today.(This Month?)
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment here.
Telling a student to NOT use ANY, or a minuscule amount of, Thumb pressure is a horrible idea shrouded in Mystery and VooDoo. The ideal is for the Left Hand to be supple enough & responsive enough & strong enough, to use just enough "pressure" to accurately stop the string, and the Thumb MUST be part (50%) of that force. (Because PHYSICS.)
Also, too - the Left Hand functions much like a C-Clamp (Yeah, I said it...) and the force/pressure is split evenly (50/50) between the Thumb and Finger(s). Hopefully the user is using an appropriately sized C-Clamp.
IMFO, of course, as always.
Phun Topic!

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm PRETTY sure that your statement that "the thumb must be 50% of the force" isn't correct. Some force, sure, but not 50% and I expect much less because if I hang my arm off the fingerboard, the weight of my arm is providing a lot of down force. I find it's enough to play without my thumb touching the back of the neck at all, so all of the force needed for a sufficient stop of the string. Of course, I don't regularly play without my thumb touching the back of the neck because it provides some force at times, and it makes a great lever for pivoting, and helps me stabilize my hand, and provides me more tactile feedback about where my hand is on the neck, and it's useful in coordination with my fingers to switch strings, etc. I do recommend trying to play "thumbless" for a bit to learn how to better leverage your arm weight and get a better handle on just how much weight is necessary for a good stop, so, I disagree with the idea that it's a "horrible idea shrouded in Mystery and VooDoo". I mean, think about, when we play in thumb position, my thumb isn't on the other side of the neck, squeezing, it's on TOP of the string, forcing the string down with my arm weight. Moreover, I expect that there's more force required to get a good stop in thumb position than closer to the scroll because the strings are that much further from the board.

I may be wrong about aspects of this but I'm certain that it's possible and think it's a wise idea to try. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable will correct anything I got wrong.

 

[BassFalcon]

Well, I'm going to be the one that points out the nature of the emperor's suit.

The use of the term "arm weight" is bogus for the majority of bass players who play bass in a near-vertical position. In that position, gravity pulls your arm and hand down toward the FLOOR, not back against the fingerboard. As near as I can tell, what's actually meant is "pull back against the fingerboard with the big muscles in your upper back." OK, that's fine; but I don't know how "weight" got into it. The terms "weight" and "gravity" have actual meanings and "a force exerted by the muscles of the upper back more or less parallel to the surface of the earth" ain't it.

Now let's talk about pulling back with the muscles of the upper back. In lower positions (physically higher up, further from the floor), this ain't gonna happen either. Why? Well, because if you pull back against the fingerboard at the top of the neck, one of two things will happen, maybe both at the same time. 1) Because the bass is only constrained in the middle where it presses against your belly, and at the floor where the end pin (rubber foot, usually) sits on the floor, the thing's gonna wave all over the place in the breeze. 2) Because you're pulling backward at the top of the neck, the end pin is going to be pushing forward against the floor (anyone ever hear of Newton's Laws of Motion - equal and opposite forces?) and if it's not a new real sticky rubber foot, it's going to slide out from under the bass. So what really has to happen in low positions is that you're going to have to exert force with your thumb to - at least partially, or mostly - counteract the forces applied by your fingers. Yeah, you can put a little force on your fingers from the upper back, reducing the force exerted by the thumb, but get too excessive here and the bass is going to wave all over the place.

What really happens, in my opinion, is that experienced bass players apply considerable force with their thumb on the back of the neck but they've built up the necessary muscles (the thumb is very strong in that direction) and they don't put any more force than required. So they're playing efficiently; but the gravitational force of the earth is not involved to any meaningful extent.

Now in the higher positions, the vertical distance between where your belly touches the bass and where your hand is, is much reduced so the resulting reaction force at the end pin is correspondingly much reduced; and then you really can get the muscles of the upper back into play. And if you play sitting with the bass fully constrained and more nearly horizontal, then the gravitational force of the earth can assist in stopping the strings. But for normal near-vertical playing and in low positions, I respectfully submit that "arm weight" is a gross misnomer.

I would dearly love to put a force transducer under the thumbs of some expert players who claim they play without thumb force and see the actual measurements, playing let's say a bunch of half position stuff in the key of F or Eb. I bet you'd find that if it takes 15 lbs to stop the string, they're applying 1 lb with the muscles of the upper back, 14.001 lb with the thumb, and not an ounce more than needed.

But you’re only looking at half the picture. You assume everything falls straight down, it doesn’t. Your hand is attached to several hinge, upon the axes of which it rotates around in 3 dimensions. These axes can convert the straight down pull of gravity into rotational force and can transfer all that energy into different vectors. Because your elbow, in whatever anyone considers good technique, is never in a straight line below your hand in terms of gravity, that means that torque is involved from your shoulder and elbow, converting the direction of the pull of gravity. At least with a bent pin (not speaking for straight pins, I’ve been bent too long, lol) it is possible to play with no left hand thumb at all, as a brief exercise. My professor in college had me do exactly that when I was using a death grip.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I don't know how else to explain the concept. The bass is fairly straight, not angled excessively, I'm not pulling back at all, arm at about a 45 degree angle, not using much thumb beyond neck contact. Of course gravity is helping but at a comfortable angle. Friction is a big part of what keeps the finger on the string, along with thumb on the back of the neck. I don't think of it as squeezing because I don't feel any significant pressure on my thumb. Balancing the instrument is important so that the thumb isn't holding it up. Keeping the thumb relaxed helps to concentrate the energy in the big muscles. That's the best I can do as far as description. It works for me. I have had students come in with similar hand pain issues but understanding and applying this idea along with any other necessary corrections to instrument or technique have helped.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm PRETTY sure that your statement that "the thumb must be 50% of the force" isn't correct.

Anytime the Thumb and Finger(s) are simultaneously engaged on the neck, the Thumb is 50% of the total force - that is my understanding of how a "clamp" works. I would need to see Actual Proof to be convinced otherwise.

when we play in thumb position, my thumb isn't on the other side of the neck, squeezing, it's on TOP of the string, forcing the string down with my arm weight.

Yes....and... the neck of the bass (which acts as a LEVER below TP), is no longer involved - the Arm & Arm weight is being ACTIVELY pushed into the fingerboard in TP, and the body (corpus?) of the bass is stabilized (whether you are sitting or standing), and one can transfer that Arm weight into the string in TP. There is no "pulling" involved, only Active "pushing" into the string.
My approach is to have the student understand from day 1, that the Thumb is a critical component of sound production, AND and Huge factor when one begins to Shift.
I would never encourage a student to waste any time going "thumbless".
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thanks, Tom.