Lefties why didn't you start playing a righty?

[TylerlovesAva]

Regardless, necessity is a powerful engine. I have a friend who is a cop who is a righty and shoots righty. To pass the academy, all cadets were required to be able to defend themselves and shoot with their weak side and meet a certain shooting score. It's amazing what you're willing to do when you don't have any other alternative.

I honestly hope I'm not quoting you out of context, and I've more productive things to do than ruffle feathers.

While I do agree that plucking and fretting are too different to be compared (which is harder, with what should be the dominant hand be tasked with), I just don't feel that neccessity was ever in question, at least when it comes to playing bass righty as opposed to lefty. Convenience would probably be more apt, with the issue of instrument availability etc. It would probably only be COMPLETELY neccessary if you really had to have a teacher who was the last of her/his kind who wouldn't have you play as a lefty, and if all lefty basses were phased out.

Yes, lefthanded people who have the natural tendency to play lefty (yes I do believe in natural inclination, and that some people don't have a "choice") CAN be taught to play the righty way, but they DON'T have to. I read a previous post from you (forgive me if I'm paraphrasing/misquoting you but I really don't feel like going back 200 pages to find it ) that you were always determined at doing things that other people told you you couldn't do, which I admire, but just doesn't apply here.

Left handed beginner bassists CAN learn to play right. Heck, intermediate bassists CAN even break their 'bad habits' (as the OP put it), and relearn bass right handed. But why try when what's intrinsically natural to them is the easier way, and would ultimately propel them to the level of musicianship they aspire to reach in an easier manner and probably faster time?

 

[One Drop]

Well, maybe we understand him to mean two different things, running Dog. I was wrong about him advocating the supression of lefty basses, but their disappearance would result if everyone was trained to play righty from the outset.

There is one issue that has not been addressed which might be more germaine to this discussion than the some of the ones brought up so far.

When we are fretting an instrument, we are not merely performing a random mechanical motion, we are in fact creating music; playing melodies, playing notes that fall within a musical/mathematical structure, looking for harmonies or dissonances with the instruments and voices we are accompanying. I believe we lead with the fretting hand and the plucking hand follows, though I'm not certain of this, it just feels so. This would explain why instruments are traditionally configured this way better than a simple mechanistic view concerning digital skill.

In other words, our brains are not merely manipulating our fingers randomly or due to memorized pattern but doing so as a means of manually translating tones and melodies we create to the fretboard via mechanical operations.

When we speak of muscle memory we are more accurately speaking of neurological pathways that increase due to practice or mental imaging, thus it is really a mental process as much as a physical one. This illustrates the importance of the brain's function in playing an instrument, and we all know how the brain operates as two sides of a hemisphere that communicate with each other.

Looking at the situation in this light makes it easier to consider that there might very well be more to the issue of left or right hand preference for fretting an instrument than simple questions of manual dexterity.

Left or right hand dominance is a result of how the two sides of the brain interact and of how impulses are tramsmitted to the parts of the body.

 

[spade2you]

I honestly hope I'm not quoting you out of context, and I've more productive things to do than ruffle feathers.

While I do agree that plucking and fretting are too different to be compared (which is harder, with what should be the dominant hand be tasked with), I just don't feel that neccessity was ever in question, at least when it comes to playing bass righty as opposed to lefty. Convenience would probably be more apt, with the issue of instrument availability etc. It would probably only be COMPLETELY neccessary if you really had to have a teacher who was the last of her/his kind who wouldn't have you play as a lefty, and if all lefty basses were phased out.

Yes, lefthanded people who have the natural tendency to play lefty (yes I do believe in natural inclination, and that some people don't have a "choice") CAN be taught to play the righty way, but they DON'T have to. I read a previous post from you (forgive me if I'm paraphrasing/misquoting you but I really don't feel like going back 200 pages to find it ) that you were always determined at doing things that other people told you you couldn't do, which I admire, but just doesn't apply here.

Left handed beginner bassists CAN learn to play right. Heck, intermediate bassists CAN even break their 'bad habits' (as the OP put it), and relearn bass right handed. But why try when what's intrinsically natural to them is the easier way, and would ultimately propel them to the level of musicianship they aspire to reach in an easier manner and probably faster time?

It would sound like you quoted me accurately and I am a bastid. In a way, I didn't have much choice when I started out since the few models they could order were out of my price range (gimme a break, I was in 8th grade and didn't have a job). There wasn't an option of trading it in or selling it back, but this was before the days of e-bay and I had no idea if I'd be able to play. Fortunately, I was armed with a can do attitude, although I might have been more determined if he had told me it can't be done. I'm strange like that. Perhaps I enjoying telling people that I have already done what "can't" be done. Hell, I make a living doing what people told me I couldn't do! The best never rest.

That being said, I see zero reason to change once you're comfortable and good. That same amount of time to relearn could be better spent improving existing techniques. I'm an unlined fretless guy and will continue to order unlined basses. Perhaps if I ran across THE fretless bass I'd be inclined to learn on it.

 

[john turner]

Who knows, given the variations in technique, ability, etc? But the world long ago made its decision: right-handed persons tend strongly to prefer the "right-handed" guitar model, which reverses for left-handed persons.

For what it's worth, I mentioned the opening argument in this thread to my left-handed wife, and she said, that had she had a left-handed bass, she would have stuck with it.

Mr Turner, I have taught myself to "mouse" with my left hand, but visitors who use my computer can't manage.

heh. one of my best friends taught himself the dvorak keyboard layout. it's a trip to see folks try to use -his- keyboard. heh. on my monster computer i have a keyboard with nothing printed on the keys. another form of "hands off" security heh.

 

[john turner]

One could make exactly the same claim for the design of cars -- that the driver's seat is on the left side so that the dominant right hand can be used for shifting gears. Certainly seems logical -- until you go over to England and find millions of right-handed drivers who have no problem at all shifting with their left hands.

Heck, over there they even eat with the fork in their left hands -- don't those limey fools understand that forks were "designed to be used by the dominant hand"???

good point about the driving. i've often wondered why folks drive on the opposite side of the road in different countries.

the fork analogy might have been flawed - it's probably more a point of etiquette than necessity, what hand is used. subordinate hand writing, now thats what i'd like to see.

 

[Pilgrim]

Has anyone stopped to consider the simple fact that selling left-handed X (fill in the blank) for those who are left-handed opens up entire new markets??

Left-handed bolt action rifles, left-handed archery gear, left-handed scissors, etc., etc.

An enterprising marketing person doesn't miss the fact that catering to a a specialized market like this can mean a captive market at higher prices for the convenience of the item.

 

[spade2you]

Has anyone stopped to consider the simple fact that selling left-handed X (fill in the blank) for those who are left-handed opens up entire new markets??

Left-handed bolt action rifles, left-handed archery gear, left-handed scissors, etc., etc.

An enterprising marketing person doesn't miss the fact that catering to a a specialized market like this can mean a captive market at higher prices for the convenience of the item.

Some already do, but offer it only as an option, free of charge, sometimes. That becomes a question of cost and advertising. It's risky, but perhaps some of the companies will break even. Due to the minority of lefties, a lot of companies would be almost obligated to have higher prices to try to cover design and advertising costs.

Don't get me wrong, I support the ideas, but I wouldn't be willing to risk my own personal capital to start this sort of business. Did we learn when Ned Flanders had to close the Leftorium?

 

[Pilgrim]

I understand, I'm just addressing the original question: "Why left-handed basses?"

My answer: if for NO other reason at all, because of market and opportunity. (IMO there are plenty of other good reasons, but that would be sufficient by itself.)

 

[Edword]

Don't get me wrong, I support the ideas, but I wouldn't be willing to risk my own personal capital to start this sort of business. Did we learn when Ned Flanders had to close the Leftorium?

I guess [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] didn't get the memo.

 

[spade2you]

I guess [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] didn't get the memo.

I was more leaning towards the cost of having to machine lefty gear. From a mass production perspective, this can be an initial challenge and approval for the tooling and production is usually up to some pencil neck in upper management.

Southpaw is an interesting company, but could you guarantee survival without the internet and/or constantly running ads in guitar mags?

Fortunately, some tooling designs aren't particularly difficult and some right handed parts are compatible. Don't get me wrong, I support it, but it's a risk on the part of the company that I wouldn't be able to afford making with my own personal funds.

 

[RunngDog]

good point about the driving. i've often wondered why folks drive on the opposite side of the road in different countries.

the fork analogy might have been flawed - it's probably more a point of etiquette than necessity, what hand is used. subordinate hand writing, now thats what i'd like to see.

My issue here is really with the concept of "design." Someone in this thread present a very circular argument to the effect that the standard guitar configuration is geared toward right-handers since it's designed to be plucked by the right hand, and plucking is done by the dominant hand, a "fact" we know to be true because guitars were "designed" to be comfortable for the right-handed majority.

In fact, the bass guitar was not really "invented" or "designed," but rather evolved over a very long period of time. If you go back far enough in the history of the guitar, you find stringed instruments that were simply held by one hand while the other hand plucked the strings. Playing such an instrument was essentially a single-handed activity, and obviously one would tend to use the dominant hand for plucking. Over time, however, that instrument evolved, with the subordinate hand being asked to perform more and more complex operations -- but not surprisingly, nobody ever stepped back and said, "Hey, we're starting to ask that subordinate hand to do such complicated things, maybe it's time to reassess which hand is doing what." (Not surprising because old habits and conventional wistom die hard: I come from a generation that was taught that the "straddle" method was the only way to high jump -- until an iconoclast named Dick Fosbury introduced the backward flop approach that is essentially the only way high jumping is done today.) On today's bass guitar, the plucking hand uses 1 or 2 fingers (or a thumb or pick) to pluck strings along a couple inches of string length, while the fretting hand uses all 4 fingers to navigate 20+ inches of fretboard filled with frets of unequal width,and it's no longer at all evident which function requires greater strenth and dexterity. As a result, it seems quite possible that a true novice could be taught to play "right-handed" or "left-handed" with no significant difference is degree of difficulty. It's even conceivable to me that fretting activities (including stretches and position changes) have become so complex that all righties would be better served playing "lefted handed" basses (and vice versa for lefties).

 

[Edword]

I was more leaning towards the cost of having to machine lefty gear. From a mass production perspective, this can be an initial challenge and approval for the tooling and production is usually up to some pencil neck in upper management.

Southpaw is an interesting company, but could you guarantee survival without the internet and/or constantly running ads in guitar mags?

Fortunately, some tooling designs aren't particularly difficult and some right handed parts are compatible. Don't get me wrong, I support it, but it's a risk on the part of the company that I wouldn't be able to afford making with my own personal funds.

These other companies are interesting too:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/bass/navigation/electric-bass-left-handed?N=100001+306320&page=1
http://www.adirondackguitar.com/lefty/LHMenu.htm
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

Tooling shmooling. As outdated notions such as the existence of a right or wrong way to play based on the numbers of available instruments fall by the wayside, retailers and manufacturers have responded with growing numbers of lefty products. There are many more than when I started buying them in the '70s, and more to come.

 

[bigbottomline]

My issue here is really with the concept of "design." Someone in this thread present a very circular argument to the effect that the standard guitar configuration is geared toward right-handers since it's designed to be plucked by the right hand, and plucking is done by the dominant hand, a "fact" we know to be true because guitars were "designed" to be comfortable for the right-handed majority.

In fact, the bass guitar was not really "invented" or "designed," but rather evolved over a very long period of time. If you go back far enough in the history of the guitar, you find stringed instruments that were simply held by one hand while the other hand plucked the strings. Playing such an instrument was essentially a single-handed activity, and obviously one would tend to use the dominant hand for plucking. Over time, however, that instrument evolved, with the subordinate hand being asked to perform more and more complex operations -- but not surprisingly, nobody ever stepped back and said, "Hey, we're starting to ask that subordinate hand to do such complicated things, maybe it's time to reassess which hand is doing what." (Not surprising because old habits and conventional wistom die hard: I come from a generation that was taught that the "straddle" method was the only way to high jump -- until an iconoclast named Dick Fosbury introduced the backward flop approach that is essentially the only way high jumping is done today.) On today's bass guitar, the plucking hand uses 1 or 2 fingers (or a thumb or pick) to pluck strings along a couple inches of string length, while the fretting hand uses all 4 fingers to navigate 20+ inches of fretboard filled with frets of unequal width,and it's no longer at all evident which function requires greater strenth and dexterity. As a result, it seems quite possible that a true novice could be taught to play "right-handed" or "left-handed" with no significant difference is degree of difficulty. It's even conceivable to me that fretting activities (including stretches and position changes) have become so complex that all righties would be better served playing "lefted handed" basses (and vice versa for lefties).

I've asked this before - why assume that the dominant hand has more dexterity?

Why assume that the dominant hand is stronger?

Rhythm is essential in music. That rhythm primarily comes from the plucking hand.

 

[RunngDog]

Rhythm is essential in music. That rhythm primarily comes from the plucking hand.

Intonation is essential in music. That intonation comes exclusively from the fretting hand.

 

[spade2you]

Tooling shmooling.

So I take it you have machined left handed tools and metal parts?

How long did it take for companies to start offering a lefty AR15? There are lots of things to consider. Do you want to keep all of the internals the same? Can you? Do you work with existing lower receivers or make one from scratch? How can you modify things to use as many surplus parts as possible? Above all, how can the company sell enough to cover the expenses and make it profitable?

For the most part, guitars and basses can be mirrored and a lot of bass hardware can be reversed or left handed parts are available for a lot of things. Machining the metal parts gets expensive really quickly. How much would it cost for a lefty Trans Trem or solid LH Dingwall bridge??? The answer is usually cost prohibitive. (Unless Sheldon has already done this and I'm not in the loop.)

Hell, the CNC tooling for a 5 string Mouse 30 5 was about 2,100. Since I'm not a rich man, this is cost prohibitive for me.

I'm not saying it's the way things should be, but it's not as easy as it would appear some are thinking.

 

[avid]

Machining the metal parts gets expensive really quickly. How much would it cost for a lefty Trans Trem or solid LH Dingwall bridge??? The answer is usually cost prohibitive. (Unless Sheldon has already done this and I'm not in the loop.)

Hell, the CNC tooling for a 5 string Mouse 30 5 was about 2,100. Since I'm not a rich man, this is cost prohibitive for me.

For Sheldon to make a lefty it is probably cost prohibitive, sadly. For Samick to make 1% lefties for whatever brands "offshore" model probably can be done contracturally for the same price, just guessing. MTD is selling their Z in lefty and at the same price as well as offering color choice. Zon is offering their Mosaic lefty for a nominal +10%, not much on 1K bass.

 

[bigbottomline]

Intonation is essential in music. That intonation comes exclusively from the fretting hand.

I would rather hear a bass player groove with one note than hear one play many notes out of time.

Ever hear about playing with feel? That comes from the plucking hand.

If you study someone like Jamerson or Graham, you'll learn that the fretting ain't that difficult.

 

[Edword]

So I take it you have machined left handed tools and metal parts?

How long did it take for companies to start offering a lefty AR15? There are lots of things to consider. Do you want to keep all of the internals the same? Can you? Do you work with existing lower receivers or make one from scratch? How can you modify things to use as many surplus parts as possible? Above all, how can the company sell enough to cover the expenses and make it profitable?

For the most part, guitars and basses can be mirrored and a lot of bass hardware can be reversed or left handed parts are available for a lot of things. Machining the metal parts gets expensive really quickly. How much would it cost for a lefty Trans Trem or solid LH Dingwall bridge??? The answer is usually cost prohibitive. (Unless Sheldon has already done this and I'm not in the loop.)

Hell, the CNC tooling for a 5 string Mouse 30 5 was about 2,100. Since I'm not a rich man, this is cost prohibitive for me.

I'm not saying it's the way things should be, but it's not as easy as it would appear some are thinking.

Don't take my word for it, contact the manufacturers who have made the instruments in the links I posted. They seem to have found a way to do lefty profitably.

 

[spade2you]

Don't take my word for it, contact the manufacturers who have made the instruments in the links I posted. They seem to have found a way to do lefty profitably.

Aside from the Fender Strat, Gibson vibrato, and tele bridge, I didn't see hardly anything in these basses that required extensive tooling. Fortunately, these parts have been available for a while, otherwise the price tags would have been ugly.

Mass producing wooden items isn't particularly difficult, but the second you start having to develop new tooling to machine metal parts, it gets really expensive which is why I mentioned the lefty AR15, as well as the Steinberger and Dingwall bridges. A lefty neck and body is cake.

Say you wanted a Kahler trem in lefty. No problem. It's ambi like most bass bridges. Say ya want a Trans Trem. Problem! Companies like Zon and Status use molds for their graphite parts. Making a new mold costs an arm and a leg, too.

 

[TylerlovesAva]

It would sound like you quoted me accurately and I am a bastid. In a way, I didn't have much choice when I started out since the few models they could order were out of my price range (gimme a break, I was in 8th grade and didn't have a job). There wasn't an option of trading it in or selling it back, but this was before the days of e-bay and I had no idea if I'd be able to play. Fortunately, I was armed with a can do attitude, although I might have been more determined if he had told me it can't be done. I'm strange like that. Perhaps I enjoying telling people that I have already done what "can't" be done. Hell, I make a living doing what people told me I couldn't do! The best never rest.

That being said, I see zero reason to change once you're comfortable and good. That same amount of time to relearn could be better spent improving existing techniques. I'm an unlined fretless guy and will continue to order unlined basses. Perhaps if I ran across THE fretless bass I'd be inclined to learn on it.

I see your point about having had to "deal" with righty basses, although there are still ways around this. The singer bass player I replaced in my ex-band in Hongkong started out just a singer, but out of neccessity learned to play bass. He is a lefty, just like you and I.So he bought the first bass that sounded fine to him (an Ibby soundgear, it was), strung it upside-down and played it other way around. He said it was just what was comfy from him right off the bat, and this from a guy who never had any prior guitar or bass experience, never really cared for bass as much as singing, doesn't have any bass idols (Sting would be the closest, but more because of his singing, and we know he plays righty), just a guy who knew what felt right for him, and, much like you, did something other people whould've not agreed with. The bass might've dived like crazy (never asked him, can't remember if he screwed in the straplocks further down the body) but he played it so anyway, and turned out to be a decent bass player.

Not to undermine what you've accomplished as a bassplayer, I think that you, like me (at least if I remember correctly how I learned to play guitar), just never had the strong inclination to play lefty.

Amen to the last paragraph, by the way, and while I do agree that producing left-handed products would always cost money, I believe there's always gonna be a market for 'em. So I guess it really is up to the companies if they'd be willing to make short term sacrifices for, what I believe, is still a good long term investment.