Lessons vs. buying more gear - Adam Nitti

[john turner]

i find the original quote somewhat ironic, since i doubt that adam nitti pays much, if anything, for any of his gear.

 

[JimK]

Originally posted by Kraken
Because my playing has reached a level where i feel that I'm not progressing due to my lack of theory knowledge.
Does anyone Else have this problem or any thoughts?

Yep, it's called plateau-ing.
Said this before, I'll say it again...most of us gravitate towards the "familiar" & what we relate to; practicing 'what we don't know' is often times more difficult than it appears(seems easy, doesn't it?).

 

[JimK]

Originally posted by fretbuzz
AFTER 8 YEARS playing, you should have lots of theory down, dont you? im not saying dont take lessons, but if i were an 8 year player, i dont know how much lessons will help.

Some guys might have to un-learn 8 years of doin' it wrong, too!
Perhaps, it is easy to have theory "down" after 8 years...the ABCs are like that.
As mentioned by others, the actual practice, usage, & APPLICATION is the kicker(ie, learning never stops).

 

[Church-Bass]

Originally posted by JimK
Some guys might have to un-learn 8 years of doin' it wrong, too!

That is very true. That sounds like me! I have been playing for 10 years now, all self-taught. I play live regularly, mainly at church, 3 times a week for years now. I have had formal tuition with the organ and piano since age 5, so my theory is fine, and I can sight read and follow changes with no problems. I have also had formal voice training too, and this has trained my ear. My main reason to take lessons for bass would be to refine my technique - my fingering, my plucking - I feel that my playing, although adequate, can probably be considered sloppy. Like I said in a previous post, to get to the next level, some formal tuition in bass is essential.

 

[Pacman]

Originally posted by john turner
i find the original quote somewhat ironic, since i doubt that adam nitti pays much, if anything, for any of his gear.

More ironic, if you know that once he changes endorsing companies, he's been known to sell off the instruments he got from the prior endorsements.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by fretbuzz
AFTER 8 YEARS playing, you should have lots of theory down, dont you? im not saying dont take lessons, but if i were an 8 year player, i dont know how much lessons will help. my teacher suggested community college for theory application. i suppose its because a 1/2 hour a week isnt much time for that. maybe because im relatively new is why he said that, but i dont know. what does everyone think about learning theory with lessons. are books the way to go with that kind of information?

It's not the time, it's what you do with it. If you stop progressing at year 3 you could still be no farther ahead than a first year player who's really getting into it. Again, banging your head against a wall for three days doesn't really gain you very much over doing it for a day, other than a bigger forehead callous. Learn to bang smarter.

What's Brad working on? Right now I'm working on some of Gary Willis' lessons. I have lots of muting techniques but his alternating plucking finger muting technique seems much more economical. I'm also (still) working on modes but I doubt that would keep anyone awake... "Does Mixologist work over Cmin or Cmaj7?".

I guess I got lucky. I somehow developed good technique and a light touch on my own... it just made sense. Doesn't happen for everybody though.

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by Pacman


More ironic, if you know that once he changes endorsing companies, he's been known to sell off the instruments he got from the prior endorsements.

there's that too.

i find it somewhat hypocritical that someone with exceptionally good quality gear often gushes forth about how the gear is not important. not just adam nitti, it seems like many endorsing artists seem to act that way. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that i disagree with them, obviously acquiring gear is not as important as acquiring knowledge, but ultimately the player should be encouraged to acquire what he/she wishes at their own pace.

i often wonder if this stems from some kind of guilt for getting gear for free.

a little side-line anecdote : a very well known, well respected bassist once said at a clinic that i was at that he could do what he did, what he was known for, on any bass in the store. needless to say, he hadn't intended on my bass being there with me .

then again, what do i know? i've paid for all my gear, and furthermore, i say with definite impunity that the gear _is_ most definitely important - if i could get what i want out of a $300 amp and a squire bass, i guarantee you that's what i'd be playing. the fact of the matter is that there _IS_ a very obvious difference between a hand made custom bass and a mass-produced, machine made bass; that a well designed, well QC'ed preamp like the aguilar db-680 _IS_ going to sound 1000x better than a $300 mass produced preamp.

usually, you really do get what you are willing to pay for.

as for placing more importance on gear than on lessons, i say if the gear purchase keeps someone interested in the instrument, then by all means, buy the gear. i was in that position - about 8 years ago, after playing bass for almost a decade, i almost quit - i was tired, bored and uninspired by 4 string and i was getting very heavily involved in martial arts. i figured that my previous experience with the instrument was worth one last hurrah, one last experiment before i quit bass completely, so i scraped up the money and had bill build me my first 7, the unlined fretless. i figured that if i didn't like this, then at least i tried, and i could quit playing or at least go on an extended, open-ended hiatus, without saying "what if". as it turned out, that one bass re-ignited my love for the instrument and became my inspiration to become "reborn" as it were.

i guarantee you, without a doubt, that if i spent that money on lessons instead of my first custom i would've quit playing bass a long time ago.

 

[john turner]

lastly, there's a basic flaw with the logic behind the quote as bruce presented it - the time spent on gear purchase planning and acquisition by even the most rabid gearhound is miniscule compared to the time required to master a musical instrument.

this should really be a non-issue.

 

[cassanova]

I once heard someone say,
ou can have the best gear money can buy, but it dont mean a thing if you cant play" I dont think truer words have ever been spoken.

I believe in getting good gear 1st, then go out and take the lessons, buy the instructional videos and lesson books. Then when you get proficient on the gear you have, go out and buy new if you want. then go back to the books, lessons, etc.

some of the best lessons ive ever had, were when i was sitting around talking with a friend, or when Im at a club or music store and i hear something really good, I just walk up to them and ask how they did that.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by john turner
lastly, there's a basic flaw with the logic behind the quote as bruce presented it - the time spent on gear purchase planning and acquisition by even the most rabid gearhound is miniscule compared to the time required to master a musical instrument.

Well yes, this is the crux of the matter, but what I suspect from reading through TB over the last few years and especially recently, is that there are a lot of people out there who are nowhere near mastering an instrument - in fact they haven't even got the basics down.

So we have people admitting that they don't know where the notes are on the neck, or how to tune a bass; but elsewhere on the board they are getting involved in loads of discussions about high-end gear and the minutiae of large rigs, buying 7-string basses etc. etc.

What I picked up on in reading some of Adam Nitti's articles - and this was just one quote of course - was a frustration with the current generation who seem to be caught up in this "instant gratification" thing. So they get a buzz from buying gear and talking about this endlessy.

But the process of actually making music requires concentration,dedication, etc etc and these concepts are seen as an instant "turn-off".

My feeling was that a lot of people are "putting off" learning about music by investing an inordinate amount of time in "gear" and everything realted to it.

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone and John is undoubtedly exempt himself, but I'm not sure the example being set for the "younger generation" is a good one - there seems to be a sort of "idolisation" going on - but it seems to be based on gear rather than anything to do with the music.

OK there are lots of comments about John's music, but no analysis of what it is that makes it good - whereas you read endless comments about the custom basses and how awesome they are.

I have even noticed that a lot of the "acolytes" are going on about buying 7-string basses - as if somehow this will also make them awesome players. It's the "instant fix" thing again - if I get a bass like JT then I will be awesome to all my band mates and friends and implicitly there is the idea that you won't have to do anything as boring as practice and study music!!


This post is getting very long, but I feel I want to say one more thing that is relevant - from John's posts on this page I can see that we have had similar experiences but have found opposite solutions. In the 80s/90s I got a bit bored and bought more and more gear - synths,sequencers and the whole home studio setup. But eventually I did just give up for about 5 or 6 years.

But I realised through talking to my girlfriend, that what was missing was playing with other people, meeting them etc. OK I could stay at home with loads of gear and make music, but it was ultimately uninspiring without that "human contact". |

So I joined a Jazz course at the local University and I was totally inspired and felt that I learnt more about music in a year than I had in decades previously. I met loads of people and jammed/played with more people than ever before. This has also inspired me to practice and motivated me to learn more and put this into my playing. I can now see this as a lifetime's work an a path to continuous learning, in which gear is to all intents and purposes irrelevant.

 

[Pacman]

Originally posted by fretbuzz
AFTER 8 YEARS playing, you should have lots of theory down, dont you? im not saying dont take lessons, but if i were an 8 year player, i dont know how much lessons will help. my teacher suggested community college for theory application. i suppose its because a 1/2 hour a week isnt much time for that. maybe because im relatively new is why he said that, but i dont know. what does everyone think about learning theory with lessons. are books the way to go with that kind of information?

I was a full time pro for 10 years the last time I started taking lessons. It opened my ears, changed some of my basic techniques, and made me twice the player I was. It makes a difference at any point in your career.

Secondly, I'm a little leery of a teacher who suggests going elsewhere to learn the application of theory. Granted, when I took lessons I had the basics down - I could read at a studio level, I knew how to keep time, I had good technique, etc. But 1/3 of the lessons (and 1/2 about 3 months into them) was about theory and it's application (by this I mean the study was of improv). If a teacher is suggesting you go elsewhere, I think you might want to do that - go elsewhere and find a new bass teacher.


Lessons help - more than gear ever could. I don't think you should hold yourself up as an example, John. You're a freak (I mean that in the nicest possible way) Seriously, you're driven and disciplined, whereas most people wouldn't do what you did - they'd give up after having spent $3k on bass. (Want anecdotal evidence? Look how many fretlesses are for sale on Ebay) My point is that for many people (with me at the front of the line), lessons help keep us on track, practicing and disciplined.

 

[cassanova]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Of course this doesn't apply to everyone and John is undoubtedly exempt himself, but I'm not sure the example being set for the "younger generation" is a good one - there seems to be a sort of "idolisation" going on - but it seems to be based on gear rather than anything to do with the music.

This is all just my opinion of course and yours may vary, but I think alot of the younger generation is'nt putting the effort into the music, due to that quite a few "modern" bass players play nice gear but play very basic line, (ride the root note or just do r-v-8 stuff.) Back in the 70's bassists played more intricate lines, Even a few in the 80's. Why would they want to take the time to learn music when there's people like Mark Hoppus, Fieldy, and many others who they idolize, who arent that technically proficient themselves? This isnt intended to bruise any ego's or to bash anyones "idols" but its something that my friends and I think.

In the 80s/90s I got a bit bored and bought more and more gear - synths,sequencers and the whole home studio setup. But eventually I did just give up for about 5 or 6 years.

Im going through that right now, Since I quit the band I was in, and had a recent audition go very well, only to get turned away because of my age, im totally uninspired to play. In fact Ive only picked up my bass 1 time since that audition. My best friend who also happens to be a drummer suggested that I take a few lessons to try and remotivate myself. He also said and i agree with him, the best thing to do when your not playing with other people is to bone up on your theory and technique.

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

So we have people admitting that they don't know where the notes are on the neck, or how to tune a bass; but elsewhere on the board they are getting involved in loads of discussions about high-end gear and the minutiae of large rigs, buying 7-string basses etc. etc.

yeah, that's true too, and believe me, i was LOST when i first went to 7 from 4. it took me a while to get any kind of mental proficiency in visualizing and understanding 7 string, after being on a 4 for a relatively long time.

in fact, your whole post on the topic is very well put.

i'd like to add something. i think the gear fetishing/idolisation/emulation thing is a factor of age. when i was a teenager, i idolized geddy lee, and emulated his tone, gear choices, and approach, along with playing many many rush songs in a few different bands. i would even have bass lessons when i was starting out that only consisted of learning a few simple geddy lee licks, and the small bits of music theory behind them.

i think that this stage is very important for a lot of musicians, especially rock players, in that through the emulation of the musicians you love, you can come to a point of understanding of what it is about their music that you love. many who reach this point of understanding realize that they are not really that interested in playing any more - the magic's gone, so to speak.

i think it's a relatively small percentage of folks who want to take the next step into developing themselves as original, unique voices on their instrument. it takes a level of dedication, commitment and focus far beyond what it takes to just play someone else's music and fantasize.

i think both of these stages should be addressed, and nurtured, by the music educational community. by not recognizing and endorsing the "adolescent" stage of a musician's career, that of emulation and hero worship, the organized, educated musicians and music-educational process do themselves a disservice, in that they can make a young, developing musician think that the "education" route is boring or against the music that they want to play. this helps to breed musicians who never want to learn more or better themselves, which in turn creates this dichotomy between "educated" and "uneducated" where a dichotomy shouldn't really exist in the first place.

i mean, sure, i would love to discuss the theory and concepts going on behind, say my instrumental ,but i also realize that my gear is very unique, and the stuff i'm doing with it is a bit different than the run of the mill pop/rock offerings around today, so i should hope some younger folks would dig it enough to ask me about my basses and gear and all.

i mean, i would rather be known for writing and playing an interesting song than for playing interesting instruments, but i'll take the attention, any way i can get it.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes, I think this is a perspective that I've probably lost and having actually met a lot of great bass players, who are about the same age as me, I don't tend to think about them in this way anymore, although I can remember staring in awe at Chris Squire at Yes gigs when I was 14.

I suppose we all got into it this way. But I think there may be a difference which alessandro pointed out. I'm sure there's a lot you can learn from Geddy Lee's playing and I remember learning every single Led Zeppelin bassline and I feel this taught me something.

But would somebody copying say Fieldy, get anything out of doing this, apart from serious GAS?
It may be my problem and something that would mean I'm not suited to be a teacher, but I knew that already!

I think I get "preachy" about this because I wasted a lot of my time in buying gear to copy the latest "hot sound" in what was inevitably a futile pursuit, as the thing is to get the music down first and then if you are any good you'll get a deal and access to professional studios which will be doing the next "hot sound" and will always be way ahead of you.

So when I think back to the money and time I wasted on buying gear, when I could have been learning about music, it makes me feel I need to get this message across to help others. But of course everybody finds their own way and they will probably do the opposite of what anybody says anyway!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Okay, this may be blasphemy but here goes anyway...

Maybe everyone does not want to play at an advanced level. There, I said it

Maybe everyone does not have the desire to play at *insert bass god*'s level. Maybe they're perfectly happy working the I-IV-V in a Blues gig day in and day out.

It just seems the continuing assumption is that people need to study in order to play at a high level... well what if you don't want to ?

What about the guy who doesn't want to be a studio musician, or the next Jaco? As crazy as it sounds, everyone does not aspire to play Jazz. Or Classical. Or three basses simultaneously, detuning on the fly

I'm not saying theory and education in general hurt but come on, some people have the desire to jam with their buds on a cool bass rig and nothing more... and I for one don't have a problem with that. Someone has to

I think way more is being read into this situation than it actually merits.

Ya think?

 

[fretbuzz]

I personally would be thrilled to GET to the blues gig level. i would be kidding myself to think i could ever be a bass god, god helper or even bass shoe shine boy. if i can get good enough to have fun, play with other people and not screw up all the time, i would be thrilled.

 

[JimK]

Brad-
...good points! It's quality, not quantity. And in the grand scheme of things, 8 years ain't much(unless you're Mozart).
(& I'll never get that light touch thing down).

Bruce-
...good points!

I still contend mid-'80s Oteil...with a stock '80s Fender Jazz, G-K 800RB amp, & a home-made 1x15 cab(a little later, it was a PEAVY cab!) cooked every bit as he does today with his Modulus signature bass & Ampeg amp/cabs.
Is he playin' any better today?
Is he sounding any better today?

I just read/heard some player talking about how the latest & greatest stuff is soooo consistent; this guy(wish I could remember his name)was lamenting how the 'older' stuff made you work at getting a sound. Any of you guys play an early Fender, you'll know what he's sayin'; ya hadda learn how to make those dead spots sing...somehow.

That said-
I wish I was a real player so I could justify a Sadowsky or a Roscoe.

 

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by fretbuzz
not screw up all the time...

I know what you mean. I feel like I do screw up all the time.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Okay, this may be blasphemy but here goes anyway...

Maybe everyone does not want to play at an advanced level. There, I said it

Maybe everyone does not have the desire to play at *insert bass god*'s level. Maybe they're perfectly happy working the I-IV-V in a Blues gig day in and day out.

It just seems the continuing assumption is that people need to study in order to play at a high level... well what if you don't want to ?

What about the guy who doesn't want to be a studio musician, or the next Jaco? As crazy as it sounds, everyone does not aspire to play Jazz. Or Classical. Or three basses simultaneously, detuning on the fly

I'm not saying theory and education in general hurt but come on, some people have the desire to jam with their buds on a cool bass rig and nothing more... and I for one don't have a problem with that. Someone has to

I think way more is being read into this situation than it actually merits.

Ya think?

Well I did say in the post quoted above by John, about people around here saying they don't know where the notes are on the neck or how to tune a bass - surely these things are essentials no matter what you're doing?

Or maybe we're siding with all the guitarists who say that playing bass is easy?

Do we want another generation who see bass players as second-class musicians who just act like some kind of band-in-a-box for singers to wail over or guitarists to show us their "licks"?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well I did say in the post quoted above by John, about people around here saying they don't know where the notes are on the neck or how to tune a bass - surely these things are essentials no matter what you're doing?

Or maybe we're siding with all the guitarists who say that playing bass is easy?

Do we want another generation who see bass players as second-class musicians who just act like some kind of band-in-a-box for singers to wail over or guitarists to show us their "licks"?

You missed my point. It's not about whether or not bass is considered "easy" (hey, farting is "easy" but it takes quite a bit of work to get really good at it). It's not about a generational apathy toward the instrument's status in music.

*and there was much wringing of hands*

Some people really have no use for learning 'Trane heads or studying Bach in their pursuit of musical pleasure. If anyone wants to stick to worst case scenarios, cool... I'm not talking about the guy who takes his bass to the shop to be restrung, there are lots of players who know the notes, have a good feel for the music they like and are happy with their abilities. Some don't even hate genres they don't listen to or techniques they don't use and have no proficiency with.

The worst case scenario is not the sum of who's talking about gear, practically everyone here does. Before I took the stance of thinking anyone was in need of practice I'd just deal with my own situation. I doubt that many here are seriously pursuing music as a career, which is where theory, reading and people skills might really get you a leg up. That's not a bass thing, it's a music thing.

Personally I could care less how others view bass playing... SFW

*Edited for a grammar mishap