Lessons vs. buying more gear - Adam Nitti

[Brad Johnson]

fred sed: "find a player you like and think you could learn from and ask him for lessons during their break."

I'm baffled when people ask me.

I guess if this was a simple "Lessons OR Gear" equation it would be easy. It's not and it never is... but it's usually treated that way.

The Nitti quote is clearly "If some", not "all".

Consider this: what constitutes a "lesson"? Strictly theory... Fretboard familiarization... Actually physically sitting down with a teacher?

I don't see an absolute harm in talking about gear. Gear is definitely part of the equation. Some people are looking for gear to solve things only practice will, but unless you know the whole picture you truly can't know who these people are.

As for me... I'm still learning and IMO there are lots of alternatives to sitting down in a practice room with a teacher. The assumption seems to be made that some people can't get the material and work on it themselves. I've never mentioned what I'm working on here... does that mean I'm not?

I understand the anti-gear stance "You can only play one bass at a time" and couldn't agree less... and technically speaking you "can" play more than one at a time. I think I can appreciate the differences in nice basses (sometimes they're subtle, sometimes not) and don't feel the need to deprive myself of that variety because of a mindset. I just can't get my mind around thinking "I like fretted and fretless basses, I must choose one".
Why?

Practice helps everyone. Some people know what they're weaknesses are and know what to work on... some know and don't. Some don't know and maybe those are the people who would really benefit from a sit-down. It doesn't, however, mean everyone.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson


Consider this: what constitutes a "lesson"? Strictly theory... Fretboard familiarization... Actually physically sitting down with a teacher?

As for me... I'm still learning and IMO there are lots of alternatives to sitting down in a practice room with a teacher. The assumption seems to be made that some people can't get the material and work on it themselves. I've never mentioned what I'm working on here... does that mean I'm not?


Practice helps everyone. Some people know what they're weaknesses are and know what to work on... some know and don't. Some don't know and maybe those are the people who would really benefit from a sit-down. It doesn't, however, mean everyone.

I do agree with these comments - there are lots of ways to learn and I'm not a particular fan of one-to-one lessons with another bass player and I do a lot more workshops with other musicians and find I learn more this way. A lot of musicians are not good teachers, but if you find one who is I think it's worth sticking with them even if they are an alto sax or trumpet player.

And if you can't find a good teacher then there are lots of things you can do - I think this is what I was getting at, in a sense. There is so much you could be doing, yet we get comparatively few posts in TB on this subject, yet thousands on what bass to buy, where my answer would always be the same - try as many as you can and get the one you like best. End of story.

I think it would be much more interesting if we did have threads like - what is Brad working on now, for example. I'm also in the position where I think I know what I need to work on, but it's alway interesting to hear different ideas and these can be very motivating in terms of getting you to work on something else or something you might not have thought of.

I was very inspired recently by an "on the road" documentary I saw recently with Randy Brecker and I was inspired by his comments along the lines of music giving him a purpose in life and there is just so much that we could talk about here that doesn't involve gear or even the fact that we are bass players as opposed to just "musicians".

The main point underlying all this for me, is how you motivate yourself to work on music rather than doing something else - and it would be nice if TB was helping with this rather than providing another distraction - as in something else to do other than practice, study etc.

 

[brianrost]

Originally posted by Angus


That's such a terrible, terrible excuse! That's a HUGE area. There's no way in hell that aren't absolutely any. If you look, you'll find them.

How to find bass instructors:

1. Go to every music store in town and ask to speak with whomever gives lessons there. It's OK to screen instructors, even ask them for a free trial lesson.

2. When you go see local bands, talk to the bass players and see if they are studying or have studied with anyone.

3. If you meet a local player who does something you like, ask him if you can come by and hang with him for a few hours. Bring a tape deck and a notebook and maybe you can learn something new. One local jazz bassist gave me two hours of his time one day and left me with a year's worth of work to do!

4. Check with the local high school band directors. Also the music dept. of any local colleges.

 

[Lisa Weiss]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

And if you can't find a good teacher then there are lots of things you can do - I think this is what I was getting at, in a sense. There is so much you could be doing, yet we get comparatively few posts in TB on this subject, yet thousands on what bass to buy, where my answer would always be the same - try as many as you can and get the one you like best. End of story.

I think it would be much more interesting if we did have threads like - what is Brad working on now, for example. I'm also in the position where I think I know what I need to work on, but it's alway interesting to hear different ideas and these can be very motivating in terms of getting you to work on something else or something you might not have thought of.

The main point underlying all this for me, is how you motivate yourself to work on music rather than doing something else - and it would be nice if TB was helping with this rather than providing another distraction - as in something else to do other than practice, study etc.

Bruce,

I usually lurk, or post in Off Topic because I'm pretty new to bass playing, so there's not much for me to say. I believe that I've started two threads on equipment since I joined Talkbass. The first was prior to getting a teacher, and was on decent basses for beginners. The second was recent, and related to Amps, since I don't own one, and am completely baffled by them!

When I first started playing, I didn't have a teacher. Twenty-eight or so odd years ago I started playing guitar. Back in the stone age, you really couldn't find anyone to teach a girl bass....pretty much just folk guitar. I had a fairly bad experience with my original guitar teacher, and just stopped taking lessons. I never learned theory, or how to read music.

When I finally got the opportunity to learn bass, thanks to my bad experiences, I didn't look for a teacher, but tried to learn on my own. Thanks to my occasional innate intelligence and the folks at Talkbass, I rapidly decided I had to have help, and eventually lucked into Adam Nitty.

Yes....I know I'm rambling, but it's early! Stick with me, I think I'm actually going somewhere with this.

I guess I've been in lessons about 6 months now, but I'm still very much like the 43-year-old village idiot when it comes to bass! Theory is kicking my butt....it's like learning a new language, and my memory sure isn't what it used to be either! I see stuff in here all the time I have questions about, and I just bombard Adam with questions when it's time for my lesson, rather than confirm I'm the village idiot!

So, after the incoherent prelude, the point! I think it's probable that folks who are taking lessons aren't going to be doing much posting in Subs like General Instruction, because they can simply ask their teacher. It's much easier to post questions about gear. There are a lot of folks here who've done extensive research on things like Amps, so it's really easy to get intelligent answers without appearing incredibly stupid.

So...what's Lisa learning now, you ask? I learned to slide last week!

Lisa

 

[Zoot H Rollo]

i have a lot of thoughts on this.

my progress recently has been very rewarding.

i haven't had a teacher for years.

all my years of theory, classical piano, listening, playing with others, relaxing, writing, trombone, etc... are FINALLY coming together.

and i'm 43.

i'm comfortable with the idea that learning NEVER stops.

i didn't used to be....especially during the virtuoso-fusion 70's.

also, a book i read last year was illuminating.

EFFORTLESS MASTERY. took a while for it to sink in. its a bit on the ZEN side of playing...valid ****.

from the field:

Billy Cobham has a tune on his first LP Spectrum called Stratus.

has a repetitve bass line that is deceptively simple.

my new band has decided to work on this one. soooo, i played along with it for about an hour. adding my own double note plucked scale/arp runs. took me about 1/2 hour to get comfortable with improvising at tempo.

i stopped playing the tune, let my hands relax and something interesting happened when i played next.

i was COMPLETELY RELAXED!!!!! what previously had been a struggle to play was EASY!

reminded me of Gary Willis' technique. that guy can smoke, but he's barely movin!

point?

its hard work learning how to relax...the great paradox of technique.

f

 

[td1368]

Funny I was thinking of starting a thread called "Happy with my equipment"

I don't think the discussion is about who should own what piece of equipment but rather at what point is there a diminishing return on an investment.

For example if I where to save for a decent bass and amp it would cost relatively a thousand or two. For where I'm at that's almost two years of lessons. I'm opting for lessons.

However if I where a pro or semi-pro, ahh ok even an amatuer, a few thousand on equipment is the cost of business. Also think of it this way. In most professions continuing education, in addition to equipment upgrades, is a key to growth and success.

G.A.S. hurts.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by fhodshon

also, a book i read last year was illuminating.

EFFORTLESS MASTERY. took a while for it to sink in. its a bit on the ZEN side of playing...valid ****.

from the field:

Billy Cobham has a tune on his first LP Spectrum called Stratus.

has a repetitve bass line that is deceptively simple.

my new band has decided to work on this one. soooo, i played along with it for about an hour. . took me about 1/2 hour to get comfortable with improvising at tempo.

i stopped playing the tune, let my hands relax and something interesting happened when i played next.adding my own double note plucked scale/arp runs

i was COMPLETELY RELAXED!!!!! what previously had been a struggle to play was EASY!

reminded me of Gary Willis' technique. that guy can smoke, but he's barely movin!

point?

its hard work learning how to relax...the great paradox of technique.

f

Who was that book by - I remember it being mentioned but I never got arund to buying it although I made a mental note?

I really like that Bily Cobham tune and I think these things are often very hard to play as you start to get fatigue in your left wrist from being in the same position. I think as you say - relaxation is the key to this and some of the Jazz bass tutors I've met seem to have this effortless approach and are really laid back. I'm afraid that I start to get nervous about letting the band down and tense up more when I feel I'm "losing it" - it is hard work!!

I wasn't sure about "adding my own double note plucked scale/arp runs" is there room in this tune? I suppose it depends how busy the drummer is - on a scale where Billy Cobham is at the extreme high end!!

 

[Kraken]

Well I've now been playing for 8 years without lessons and I feel I've developed my own technique - that is My way of playing the bass - I'm now considering lessons so that I can learn all of the useful theory bits, the reason...

Because my playing has reached a level where i feel that I'm not progressing due to my lack of theory knowledge.

Does anyone Else have this problem or any thoughts?

 

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by td1368
I don't think the discussion is about who should own what piece of equipment but rather at what point is there a diminishing return on an investment.

Very good point. I certainly do not want to convey the image that I see things in black and white one way or the other. I think, as Bruce stated very well in his first post, that personal development can be ignored at the sack of consumerism.

Purchasing gear just for the sake of consuming is more what I disagree with. Personal development should be obtained by whatever means works for the individual, whether that's getting more adequate equipment, taking one-on-one lessons, attending workshops or seminars, or bringing back the soul of Jaco and having him play through you.

 

[fretbuzz]

AFTER 8 YEARS playing, you should have lots of theory down, dont you? im not saying dont take lessons, but if i were an 8 year player, i dont know how much lessons will help. my teacher suggested community college for theory application. i suppose its because a 1/2 hour a week isnt much time for that. maybe because im relatively new is why he said that, but i dont know. what does everyone think about learning theory with lessons. are books the way to go with that kind of information?

 

[Zoot H Rollo]

i took 4 semesters of common practice harmony (theory), 1 semester of counterpoint, 2 semesters of composition.

mixed in was sight singing and classical piano.

all at a local community college.

tremendous rewards.

i recommend a classroom environment for this stuff. the intereaction with a teacher and other students is essential.

you may think you don't want to learn classical theory because you don't listen to classical music...but, it is the cornerstone of western (eurocentric) music.

all styles.

fred

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Lisa Weiss


When I finally got the opportunity to learn bass, thanks to my bad experiences, I didn't look for a teacher, but tried to learn on my own. Thanks to my occasional innate intelligence and the folks at Talkbass, I rapidly decided I had to have help, and eventually lucked into Adam Nitty.

Yes....I know I'm rambling, but it's early! Stick with me, I think I'm actually going somewhere with this.

I guess I've been in lessons about 6 months now, but I'm still very much like the 43-year-old village idiot when it comes to bass! Theory is kicking my butt....it's like learning a new language, and my memory sure isn't what it used to be either! I see stuff in here all the time I have questions about, and I just bombard Adam with questions when it's time for my lesson, rather than confirm I'm the village idiot!

So do you actually have one-to-one lessons with Adam then? I don't know much about him apart from what I've seen in Bass Player mag - his lessons seem to be very good and conicide with what I've come to think of as the best technique etc.

I imagine that he must be a good teacher - what's it like having lessons with him?
What sort of music is he into, or working on with you?

 

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by fretbuzz
AFTER 8 YEARS playing, you should have lots of theory down, dont you? im not saying dont take lessons, but if i were an 8 year player, i dont know how much lessons will help

Lessons are not just about theory. Theory is discussed so that a musical language can be established. After it is, your teacher and yourself, and other musicians, can better express ideas and communicate.

Rufus Reid is currently taking lessons, which I think unequivocally refutes the arguement, "but if i were an 8 year player, i dont know how much lessons will help."

 

[Sheep Man]

Hmm...

Ok, my view on this...
I'm an extremely lazy person, but I can get work done, and done well if I put myself to it. The problem is, I often don't take the time on my own to do this stuff.

For example, homework. I used to do really bad, and hated doing even the most simple stuff, like copying Chinese characters 10 times in a notebook. I knew it wouldn't take long, and it didn't require any sort of skill, but I still refused to do it. Then my mom would come in my room, notice I haven't done homework for a while, and sit down with me and force me to do it.

So, for about 5 or 10 minutes with my mom sitting next to me, I'd finish my Chinese homework and get on to the next piece of work. Next thing I know, it's only been about 30 minutes and I've finished all my homework.
Mind you, this is all in like....2nd grade. So after time, it's manifested itself even more, and it's not just limited to homework.

With bass, I find I always worked at it more when I was sitting there in front of my teacher, discussing it and picking apart what I'm doing right or wrong.

I personally need someone to be supervising me when I work. I know it shouldn't be an excuse, but it's the way I seem to work...
Hopefully, I'll be able to change that and begin working on my own, instead of working under supervision or cramming at the last minute.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Jazzbo, it's too bad you took most of what I wrote out of context and miscontrued it. But at least we're on the same page.

As for the purpose of lessons, once you get past knowing how to play the instrument, you can get into concept; how you approach playing, ideas, etc., and *refinement*.

 

[Lisa Weiss]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


So do you actually have one-to-one lessons with Adam then? I don't know much about him apart from what I've seen in Bass Player mag - his lessons seem to be very good and conicide with what I've come to think of as the best technique etc.

I imagine that he must be a good teacher - what's it like having lessons with him?
What sort of music is he into, or working on with you?

Yes. I've been taking lessons with him for somewhere around 6 months. He's a great teacher! He mixes theory up with other things, so I don't get too hammered. Like I said, the memory is shot!

He's really patient, and thankfully has a great sense of humor, which is good, since I'm probably his most trying student. I picked a heck of an age to learn something new!

He's into a lot of different music, but his trio plays jazz. I haven't managed to hear him live yet with the whole group, since he usually plays on Wednesday night, and I have to be at work by 7:00 the next day, but he classifies it as "hard" jazz...and somewhat frantic.

Right now we're working on 12 bar blues, and a jazz classic that apparently is know by several different names in a Bossa Nova style, and we're starting on the Major and Minor Pentatonic scales.

The Bossa Nova is pretty interesting. He started out with a fairly standard I-V rhythm, then taught me the melody line, and now we're expanding the rhythm to a I-V-I Latin rhythm that's kicking my butt, since I'm not used to doing much of anything on an up beat!

I'm pretty excited that I'll be starting hour long lessons soon though. When the grandkids were here, I could only do a half hour, so we don't have much time to work on stuff.

Lisa

 

[PunkerTrav]

I've vbeen playing for bout 8 months. I have a nice sounding yamaha bass. I love it.. But i have never taken a single lesson. At first i just though id play for a few weeks without lessons to get a feel for the instrament then start lessons. But i've never actually gotten around to taking lessons. i dont think it has hurt me that much as a bassplayer. I had a good understanding of theory and notation ect. form other instraments.
However, i do think that taking lessons would increase my ability greatly. But is improved bas skill worth the extra comittment of time.. Frankly i just dont have the time to squeeze anything else into my shedule.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

That book "Effortless Mastery" is by the piano player Kenny Werner. Great stuff IMO.

 

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski
Jazzbo, it's too bad you took most of what I wrote out of context and miscontrued it. But at least we're on the same page.

I'm sorry Dave, I really didn't think I took anything out of context, and I thought your post was very clear, and don't see how it was misconstrued. I think the most important thing is that we do seem very much to be on the same page.

 

[Zoot H Rollo]

EFFORTLESS MASTERY is actually helping me get DONNA LEE up to tempo.

fred