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Lets Chat about different body wood combinations...

I like the scientific method, it produces better descriptions and understandings than speculation and mysticism. I really like use of randomized controlled trials, as they are the only way you can get some reliable knowledge and repeatable results. :D

Jerry you're making some statements that I suspect many of us, who are also old and experienced, might find a tad outrageous on their face. There are literally hundreds of years of collective experience on this board and we're not a bunch of idiots who have been blindly building garbage for years. Well maybe some of us are. :smug:

Let's maybe see some builds and talk techniques and how you build to achieve your goals, tonal or aesthetic. I don't mean this as a challenge at all, in fact I'm thinking more that a year from now you'll hopefully be just another respected contributor here and enjoy the legendary camaraderie. :thumbsup:
 
I like the scientific method, it produces better descriptions and understandings than speculation and mysticism. I really like use of randomized controlled trials, as they are the only way you can get some reliable knowledge and repeatable results. :D

Jerry you're making some statements that I suspect many of us, who are also old and experienced, might find a tad outrageous on their face. There are literally hundreds of years of collective experience on this board and we're not a bunch of idiots who have been blindly building garbage for years. Well maybe some of us are. :smug:

Let's maybe see some builds and talk techniques and how you build to achieve your goals, tonal or aesthetic. I don't mean this as a challenge at all, in fact I'm thinking more that a year from now you'll hopefully be just another respected contributor here and enjoy the legendary camaraderie. :thumbsup:
Mr Beej,
Thank you for your comments. I also believe in the scientific approach to solving problems. I am a structural engineer by training and trade. I use my real name, real photograph and have real information in my profile. I don't hide behind meaningless avitars and screen names. I am not ashamed of who I am and my honesty & integrity are soundly unimpeachable. I have absolutely nothing to gain by posting on this forum and I will be happy to share my methods and knowledge with anyone who is interested. However, I will not engage in meaningless, childish rhetoric with someone just trying to be controversial in order to gain attention. If it continues, I will simply check out and leave it up to you guys. You will either be curious and try it yourselves or always wonder if it's true. I have never, ever challenged anyone's comments about any subject without first having educated myself on that subject and if I find their comments in conflict with what I have learned, I will politely debate it with them in a manner than is acceptable to adults. If I wanted to debate a 10 year old, I would do that with my grandson.
That being said, I in no way meant to imply that I thought anyone on here are idiots building garbage for years. I don't believe I have said anything that has even remotely implied that, either. I demonstrated my findings at the Alamo Guitar Bazaar on Feb. 22-23 of this year to a group of professional builder/luthiers. I just uploaded 7 pics of some of my basses as well as that same guitar show. One luthier/builder in particular had worked in Gibson's Nashville Custom Shop for 37 years and moved to this area after retirement. He was amazed at my demonstration.(He's on the left side in one of the show pics in front of some of his guitars.) The owner of those guitar shows was listening to me talk and invited me to do a seminar in Dallas May 1-3, which I can't attend and in Ft. Worth July 11-12. I will try to make the Ft. Worth show. Hopefully some people on this forum will attend. Frankly, I don't seek fame, fortune, accolades or any gratification of any kind form from any participant in this discussion, or anywhere else for that matter. But, I am going to be treated with the respect I give to each of you, sight unseen. At least until you can prove that I am the blubbering fool most of you think I am. I am not a mindless idiot that's been building garbage all these years, either. I think everyone here can understand that actual physical demonstrations are impossible in a forum setting. I expect each of you to at least give my claims an honest try before condemning them. Just 25 years ago the vast majority of people refused to believe that computers and cell phones would dominate our personal landscapes as they do now even when told they would. Look where that went. I am sure everyone can think of examples that followed that same course in our lifetime. I'm 67 and remember when Kennedy said, in 1963, we were going to the moon within the decade. Well, we did. I went to church with Neil Armstrong for years. Nice guy. I don't doubt he was there. I can't prove he was, but I don't doubt it either. I will give as much respect to everyone as they give me. If you don't find credence in what I say, then go find out for yourself that it won't work before you condemn me. Bruce Johnson is saying the same general things I have said and I never heard of him until yesterday. He's been posting about it on the forum for years. Some excerpts are on this forum. I have heard no negative comments on that. Who among you have tried to disprove him? Just because I have not been a member on this forum, published papers or been regarded as some guitar guru doesn't mean I don't know about different woods properties or harmonics. I had my 15 minutes of fame back in the summer of '85 when APA Architectural Engineering magazine did an article on my roof truss designs using dimensional lumber and plywood gussets. I was even called a genius for my bold ideas in design. lol What a crock!! I hadn't even graduated from engineering school at that time. They were only promoting using plywood in critical structural load bearing design. But, just because no one had promoted the idea at that time, I was "revolutionary" in my forward thinking. I had grown up doing it for my Dad. He taught me. He had all of a 10th grade education. But, he was a true genius. I actually was an engineer, but didn't have papers to prove it. So what? I even did my senior thesis on it, too. However, I did finish first in my class.
I'll just leave it all right here. If anyone wants to hear from me, I'll be following along with the debate on it. I'll wait and see how everyone engages Bruce Johnson on his earlier posts in this particular forum and even in the others he has posted to about this subject. I'll engage again when I see where it is going. Again, thank you for your comments. I sincerely do respect your opinion. Have a blessed evening.
Cheers
 

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Yes, we've had other threads about cutting chambers in bodies; how they may or may not affect the amplified tone. You can cut them to significantly change the stiffness of the body (structurally weakening it) or you can cut them to make no change at all to the stiffness. Your choice.

Here’s a pic of the body template I used on the 4 string I shared on the opening post of this crazy thread....

1C34A5B5-F377-4AB0-BAAA-28ED347C6003.jpeg


The template includes the rear routes.

I put it on top the mark out the danger zones to avoid while carving. In the future I’ll think about routing more creatively around the pickups. This was merely for weight reduction. If I had a lot more time I might make different tops and backs and just screw them together to hear the differences.

This has definitely sparked my brain into curiosity mode :)
 
Like all Tonewood debates, this thread will produce no conclusive proof that will convince anyone , one way or the other, so I offer this case in point purely for conjecture, sans Science of any kind:

I bought a Steinberger XP-2 in 1986, the "budget" version with a bolt-on carbon/graphite neck and the same headless tuning system as the more expensive versions. The body is hard rock maple, 1-1/2" thick, and in a "flying vee" shape. It has a very thick and incredibly tough black finish, so hard I assume it is some sort of 2-part epoxy finish. This is a stock photo of the bass, but mine is identical.
sM2EoPm.jpg


Steinbergers had a reputation for sounding very Hi-Fi, very crisp piano-like tone, very "clinical" and cold to some ears. I'd say that's fair, and it is also the most string-sensitive bass I've ever owned, in other words you get very different tone out of it depending on what strings you use. Re-reading @Bruce Johnson writing lit up a light bulb in my head on this, more on that later.

Having owned the bass for 30+ years, and never intending to sell it, I decided to tinker a bit, and see if I couldn't get a "warmer" sound out of it. Without intending to, I effectively created a tonewood test of sorts by relocating everything, neck, tuners, electronics, and even the strings (which were nearly new stainless double-ball rounds), from a hard rock maple body to a one-piece mahogany body I built thusly:
nCdfWom.jpg


I slavishly reproduced the 1-1/2" body thickness, so I ended up pretty near to the original weight by feel, though I haven't weighed it on a scale. To my surprise, I achieved the precise effect I was "supposed" to hear in that the overall tone was less trebly, more bassy and "warmer", with a little less sustain, but with no idea why that should be so. Somebody is thinking "confirmation bias", it sounded warmer because I expected it to, but let's stipulate that after playing this as my #1 bass for 30 years, I had a pretty good idea what it used to sound like, and now it sounds a lot different. You'll just have to take my word for it.:D

Re-reading Bruce's post on the STIFFNESS of the entire system being more important than the actual wood selection has some interesting implications for this example. The Steinberger carbon/fiber graphite necks are extremely rigid. Ned Steinberger used to do a little parlor trick where he'd span a neck a between two chairs and stand on it with no visible bend on the neck. I'll wager you can do that with plenty of wood necks too, but they'd bend, the Steinberger neck just doesn't move. I can put any gauge of string I like on it, and it makes no difference to relief, which was cast into it in a mold.

The only added parts were different straplocks and the pup rings, I think we can agree their effect on Tone would be mimial to nonexistent? The 1-1/2" thick rock maple body was also extremely stiff, a minimalist slab with no "horns" to speak of getting torqued by your body, no voids other than a relatively small control cavity and pup routes. The neck was bolt-on, with 4 hex head machine screws threaded into brass inserts cast into the neck. The neck heel and neck pocket have a slight "dovetail" bevel, they are about 1/8" wider at the fingerboard than at the heel. This was done to allow them to pop out of the mold cleanly, and was the most difficult part of the body build for me. The effect on construction is that the neck bolts wedge the neck into the pocket ever tighter as you wind down the bolts, again, a very stiff system.

If you find Bruce's theory convincing (I do) then my results makes sense, not because mahogany is inherently "warmer" sounding than maple, but by substituting a less rigid body, I reduced the overall stiffness of the system, which bled off some high end and sustain.

Getting back to the issue of strings, I had always noticed that as soon as the strings went dead with the maple body, the bass just overall sounded crappy, which also makes sense if you buy the theory that a very stiff system simply broadcasts the sound of the strings, for good or ill. The mahogany body seems more forgiving of old strings, maybe because I'm literally hearing less of them?

Again, not expecting to convice anyone one way or the other, I'm still at least one foot in the Tone wood Agnostic camp, but I wonder if anyone else has done a similar unintended experiment that eliminated all variables except the body wood?
 
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I keep on thinking I want to say that what Bruce says resonates with me. It just sounds right to me and I believe if I start experimenting in that direction I’ll learn more of what I want in bass designs.

While I now realize that the actual subject of this threat I started is basically off the mark, I’m ok with that because everything matters (as you said above Gilmoreisgod)...

I’m glad I asked, and grateful for everyones input even if there may be opposing camps.

Carry on my friends :)
 
Definitely non-scientific, but I have noticed that more rigid necks tend to have a more focused sound. I can’t quite be as eloquent as Bruce on this, but having swapped necks on various instruments before, It has definitely affected the sound.... More so than the limited “non scientific” body wood experiments that I’ve done. A fat maple neck, graphite neck, and neck with multi laminate construction, that sort of thing seem to focus to sound better....Perhaps tightening the bass response a little bit. Again, non-scientific observation.
 
I like the scientific method, it produces better descriptions and understandings than speculation and mysticism. I really like use of randomized controlled trials, as they are the only way you can get some reliable knowledge and repeatable results. :D

Jerry you're making some statements that I suspect many of us, who are also old and experienced, might find a tad outrageous on their face. There are literally hundreds of years of collective experience on this board and we're not a bunch of idiots who have been blindly building garbage for years. Well maybe some of us are. :smug:

Let's maybe see some builds and talk techniques and how you build to achieve your goals, tonal or aesthetic. I don't mean this as a challenge at all, in fact I'm thinking more that a year from now you'll hopefully be just another respected contributor here and enjoy the legendary camaraderie. :thumbsup:

Can’t offer much to the debate as a builder, but I can say that Mr Guest built me one of his Bass guitars. I challenged a number of the points based on what I understood about the theory. Specifically the woods used and the hollow chambers tuned to 440 Hz. I played a couple at the show, came back a few times and ultimately commissioned one from him.

I can report back it is absolutely stunning to look at and the tone is amazing. It’s strung bright but has some flat wound richness to the sound (it’s very mellow). The sustain on it is incredible. So for a fact, the technique was reproduced at least 3 times that I observed. (2 I played at a show and mine built from scratch)
 
So, I'm of the resonant frequency camp!

The frequency at which the "system" vibrates which would be rate of induction into the pickup

I don't care if it's tonewoods, or stiffness, or whatever.

Until someone can tell me what the optimum resonant frequency is for any given pick up, this will continue to be "beat a dead horse" exercise.
 
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My current belief is Everything Matters, but some things matter a hell of a lot less than others, and I think body wood is pretty low on the scale compared to strings and electronics. I find the arguments Bruce Johnson has made on the relative rigidity (or lack there of) of the entire body/neck system as being more determinative of whatever minor effect wood has on amplified tone to be pretty convincing. I always get a kick out of the Alembic website, where they describe wood combinations that happen to be beautiful like recipes that can be tuned, like adding a pinch of pepper to the stew. Hey.... marketing! I say do what you want aesthetically and ergonomically on the body, and save your engineering for the neck. Predicting what several unique pieces of wood will sound like electrically amplified is way beyond a crapshoot, but if it looks good and feels good, it IS good.
Can you share this article by Bruce with me? thank you
 
I wish @Bruce Johnson would write a whole book on luthiery, but he's a working professional and a very busy guy, so thats wishing a ton of work on somebody else. The "article" id like to read too is spread out through hundreds of his posts on a wide range of subjects. Apparently he keeps and files most of his posts, maybe he'll upload them all in e-book form someday. In the meantime you could cobble together a course in Luthiery just by reading his posts dedicated to his Ampeg style bass builds, which is his core pro business.
 
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Can you share this article by Bruce with me? thank you

Like Gilmourisgod said, I've written a lot here on TalkBass on the subject of the frames of instruments; how the stiffness, vibration and wood choices affect the tone on the strings. But it's in hundreds of postings on dozens of threads. I haven't had the time to compile it all into a single article. Maybe someday.

In the Search window, enter "stiffness" for the search word and "Bruce Johnson" for Posted By. You'll get about ten pages of results. Many good threads to dig into.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread, post #18 by me is a pretty good summary of my thoughts on this subject.
 
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Like all Tonewood debates, this thread will produce no conclusive proof that will convince anyone , one way or the other, so I offer this case in point purely for conjecture, sans Science of any kind:

I bought a Steinberger XP-2 in 1986, the "budget" version with a bolt-on carbon/graphite neck and the same headless tuning system as the more expensive versions. The body is hard rock maple, 1-1/2" thick, and in a "flying vee" shape. It has a very thick and incredibly tough black finish, so hard I assume it is some sort of 2-part epoxy finish. This is a stock photo of the bass, but mine is identical.
View attachment 3802613

Steinbergers had a reputation for sounding very Hi-Fi, very crisp piano-like tone, very "clinical" and cold to some ears. I'd say that's fair, and it is also the most string-sensitive bass I've ever owned, in other words you get very different tone out of it depending on what strings you use. Re-reading @Bruce Johnson writing lit up a light bulb in my head on this, more on that later.

Having owned the bass for 30+ years, and never intending to sell it, I decided to tinker a bit, and see if I couldn't get a "warmer" sound out of it. Without intending to, I effectively created a tonewood test of sorts by relocating everything, neck, tuners, electronics, and even the strings (which were nearly new stainless double-ball rounds), from a hard rock maple body to a one-piece mahogany body I built thusly:
View attachment 3802614

I slavishly reproduced the 1-1/2" body thickness, so I ended up pretty near to the original weight by feel, though I haven't weighed it on a scale. To my surprise, I achieved the precise effect I was "supposed" to hear in that the overall tone was less trebly, more bassy and "warmer", with a little less sustain, but with no idea why that should be so. Somebody is thinking "confirmation bias", it sounded warmer because I expected it to, but let's stipulate that after playing this as my #1 bass for 30 years, I had a pretty good idea what it used to sound like, and now it sounds a lot different. You'll just have to take my word for it.:D

Re-reading Bruce's post on the STIFFNESS of the entire system being more important than the actual wood selection has some interesting implications for this example. The Steinberger carbon/fiber graphite necks are extremely rigid. Ned Steinberger used to do a little parlor trick where he'd span a neck a between two chairs and stand on it with no visible bend on the neck. I'll wager you can do that with plenty of wood necks too, but they'd bend, the Steinberger neck just doesn't move. I can put any gauge of string I like on it, and it makes no difference to relief, which was cast into it in a mold.

The only added parts were different straplocks and the pup rings, I think we can agree their effect on Tone would be mimial to nonexistent? The 1-1/2" thick rock maple body was also extremely stiff, a minimalist slab with no "horns" to speak of getting torqued by your body, no voids other than a relatively small control cavity and pup routes. The neck was bolt-on, with 4 hex head machine screws threaded into brass inserts cast into the neck. The neck heel and neck pocket have a slight "dovetail" bevel, they are about 1/8" wider at the fingerboard than at the heel. This was done to allow them to pop out of the mold cleanly, and was the most difficult part of the body build for me. The effect on construction is that the neck bolts wedge the neck into the pocket ever tighter as you wind down the bolts, again, a very stiff system.

If you find Bruce's theory convincing (I do) then my results makes sense, not because mahogany is inherently "warmer" sounding than maple, but by substituting a less rigid body, I reduced the overall stiffness of the system, which bled off some high end and sustain.

Getting back to the issue of strings, I had always noticed that as soon as the strings went dead with the maple body, the bass just overall sounded crappy, which also makes sense if you buy the theory that a very stiff system simply broadcasts the sound of the strings, for good or ill. The mahogany body seems more forgiving of old strings, maybe because I'm literally hearing less of them?

Again, not expecting to convice anyone one way or the other, I'm still at least one foot in the Tone wood Agnostic camp, but I wonder if anyone else has done a similar unintended experiment that eliminated all variables except the body wood?

This is similar to the material of a loudspeaker, the more rigid the vibrating basin is, the thinner it can be made, the higher the ductility of the high frequency, and the lower frequency can be obtained by size and structure.
 
I keep on thinking I want to say that what Bruce says resonates with me. It just sounds right to me and I believe if I start experimenting in that direction I’ll learn more of what I want in bass designs.

While I now realize that the actual subject of this threat I started is basically off the mark, I’m ok with that because everything matters (as you said above Gilmoreisgod)...

I’m glad I asked, and grateful for everyones input even if there may be opposing camps.

Carry on my friends :)

There is an old saying in China, "抛砖引玉 or Throw out a brick to attract a jade“,It means to get more valuable opinions by proposing some less mature or ordinary opinions
 
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Firstly, this is one of those subjects that I usually avoid like the plague, but having said that, this is probably the most reasoned discussion on the subject I've read.
(no insult intended to anyone who's contributed to other threads on this issue, it's just that they always seem to draw out a few posters who hold beliefs that tend to fall into the blackest of black, or whitest of white categories.)

So without wanting to claim any authority on the subject I offer some observations based on 40+ years of building, experimenting, modifying and sometimes butchering guitars and basses.

On the subject of rigidity, I'm pretty much in Bruce's camp. I started building guitars in the late 70's, through neck construction was the big thing then so all my early builds were thru neck constructions. After a while I moved from laminated necks to what I called semi thu necks, where the neck extended through the body as far as the bridge, so the strings were mounted to the same piece of wood at both ends. Essentially a very long set neck construction I suppose. I also tried several through necks, but cut from one piece of timber rather than built up from laminates. One of the reasons I tried these methods was because I was experimenting with Australian native timbers, many of which are very hard, dense and unfortunately quite heavy. Building whole instruments from woods some of which weighed 50 pounds per cubic foot, or substantially more, was unfeasible. So much lighter woods were used for the body wings and were often hollowed to reduce weight further. What I believe I found, (without building dozens of identical instruments, some with lighter body wing and some with heavy ones) was that adding either heavier, denser woods, or lighter less dense ones as body wings didn't seem to make much if any difference to the sound/tone characteristics of the instrument. Did that mean that the rigid dense and strong solid neck thru platform which housed the bridge and pickups was effectively determining the end result? (Sort of like Les Paul's original electric guitar which was a neck fitted to a solid lump of wood with an cut in half acoustic jazz guitar body fitted over it for appearance. the solid lump of wood and the neck were essentially the guitar.)

My next experiment was to use the same construction method, but with more weight friendly woods. Tasmanian Blackwood is similar to it's close relative, Hawaiian Koa, Just over 40 lbs per cubic foot and a bit denser and harder than mahogany. one piece thru necks of Blackwood made less strident/bright toned guitars than the heavier and denser eucalypts such as Red Gum. Certainly the differences weren't huge, not like in acoustic instruments, but over several instruments with the same hardware and pickups used, there did seem to be a difference. Of course I might have just been fooling myself.... But I'm generaly pretty good at being realistic and I didn't have any preconceived ideas, I was searching, not trying to prove a theory I was committed to, but still....

Another experiment was to build some instruments with bolt on necks and different body woods, so I used an all maple Allparts thick early 50's profile Tele neck and built bodies from hard ash, alder and cheap radiata pine.

The thick maple neck and hard ash body combo sounded the most different, using the same pickups, wiring loom and hardware as with the alder and pine bodies. (In fact I couldn't stand the tone, way to harsh, my tolerance for "ice pick" Tele bridge pickups isn't high to begin with)
Next I tried a dense, hard ash, center block, fitted with lighter wings repeated the test with the maple neck on that body. The results were similar to the solid hard ash body, I can't say identical, these are results based on my ears, not scientific equipment.

I've built a lot more set and bolt on neck guitars and basses over the past 20 odd years, very few through necks these days, but I still work around a solid and rigid core from headstock to bridge. A four or five inch wide by one and a half, or one and three quarter inch thick center body section with a good tight neck joint seems to provide the rigidity necessary to allow me to tailor the body wings to suit weight parameters and aesthetics.

Given than so far, no one including me, has definitively proven how much effect on sound or tone, or whatever else we think we can hear, is affected by one factor among many in the make up of an electric guitar or bass, I think I'll just finish my days in the workshop being happy with every instrument I finish that sounds good, looks nice, feels good (at least to me) and inspires me to make another one. ;)

One thing I have discovered is, for me there are a whole heap of different woods that alone or in combination, make perfectly fine electric guitars and basses, each with their own variations of character, depending on pickups, hardware, strings, scale length, pot values, woods and all the other things that go into making an electric stringed instrument.:D
 
Very nice...

I actually like every one of your replies.
I realize that this thread teeters onto one of those age old and controversial topics.

Currently, I experiment within the materials and means at my disposal, and note what I'm hearing/feeling.

Here's the thing, all of this is completely subjective to taste. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...."

What I do when I pick up a bass to check if I'll like it is to hold the body up high on my chest with my right ear close to the horn or 12th fret, and feel/hear how it resonates/sustains - unplugged (I'm a righty, and my left ear has a deficit from drumming for 25 years). Kind of analogous to an audio engineers reference tone to tape... Un-scientifically, I know what I'm looking for when I feel it. So when I checked the Northern Ash bass above, I was like "wow", that's different and nice.. Kind of sweet.

Anyway, please continue on, I appreciate all your feedback :)

I do the same thing. Many would like to think that the conclusions I draw from listening acoustically are coincidental. I have no problem with them believing that. I also don't spend time chasing my tail trying to find what I want. Another coincidence?
;)
 
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There are those who need to believe that wood can't be proven to be a major tonal factor in a build. That noticing anything like that, even after hundreds or thousands of similar builds is suspect. They need to believe that it must be something else, while saying that there's no proof of wood's effect. I have several builds from one builder and the hardest hitting ones have been heavy Northern Ash and heavy Maple bodied. Yet there are those who'd like to believe that the differentiators MUST be strings or electronics... anything BUT wood. Despite the fact that neither have made other woods sound close. I won't debate the calls for lab tests, I do find them amusing. I trust my ears. If you don't, cool.
 
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