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Double Bass Let's talk loud...

El Thumpo

El Thumpo

Four strings, no waiting
Supporting Member
Oct 15, 2006
1,015
1,062
San Francisco Bay Area
#1
Okay, so here's the situation. I'd like to hone in on my step-up bass (from my '38 Kay, which will remain the road warrior). It can be a hybrid or fully-carved, but one of key things I'm looking for is inherent volume.

Right now at least, I primarily back up singer-songwriters, and quite often these are in venues that don't have a permit for amplified music. So I want to--and often have to--pump out a presence organically.

Unfortunately, 7/8s are probably not on the agenda, since while I'm not a small guy I don't have particularly large hands (even on my Kay, I have to shift slightly in first position).

I really enjoy arco, and want to get deeper into that. Also, we're talking about a budget of 5-6K. (Remember, this is the "step-up" bass, not the forever one.)

Any suggestions? Loudness without bigness is hard to track down. Your thoughts are welcome.
 
#3
Has anyone in the audience told you you're too quiet? Basses tend to sound a lot louder out front, and particularly the bass carries well and can still be heard further away than a guitar.

I go busking with a couple of guitarist/singers and when people come to check us out it's because they heard the bass from way down the street. I take a 3/4 ply bass with me that isn't particularly loud but produces a lot bottom end.
 
#4
Apart from the general notion that flat-back basses tend to "cut" more, you're really thinking more about setup than 'brand' or model. How tall a string-height are you willing to work with? You ready to strap on some Spiros? All of which is to say, you might want to spend less on a bass and more on a luthier.

+ + +

You're also thinking about the bass-player. Are YOU ready and willing to tug a sound?

I played for about twenty years before I started seriously working on pulling an unamplified sound (thanks again, Ed). The bass I was playing at that time was a medium-small viol-shaped flat-back. Everything in that description says 'small' but when the operator became ready to blow out windows the tool rose to the occasion.

+ + +

Lastly FWIW: My bass is in your budget. (No, it's not for sale.) My point is that as far as I'm concerned, it's my bass, not my current bass, my step-up bass or my make-do bass. It may not be perfect but it sounds better than the owner in the right hands. You can get a lot of bass for five thousand bucks if you're patient and cast aside preconceptions.

Happy hunting and good luck.
 
#5
I appreciate your thoughts and considerations, Sam, Kev and Fog. Please be assured that playing technique, string choices, set up and the myriad of other tone factors are also part of the equation. But I am trying to get a sense of how some basses have more inherent volume than others, particularly without being too large-scale.

Perhaps it's ironic, but my quest for volume is to give me the option of playing more quietly--with more nuance and subtlety. Unamplified, I can dig in and punch through with my Kay, but that's a particular sound. When the singers and guitarists are trying to spin out delicate harmonies in a heartfelt love song, I feel my role is to add presence, not power.
 
#8
I just had upton build me a hybrid that would be lightweight and easy to carry, but to also make it nice and deep and loud. It worked! I am generally a loud bass player, playing like a half shaven grizzly bear, but I had a kay for a while and it couldn't cut it over drums, even with bright strings and jacked up action. I would call up upton and see about getting a hybrid (possibly semi-deluxe), and they will build it to your specs.
 
#9
I'll back up Nathan's claim about the volume available from his Cleaveland. Although I know it's not just the bass because I have SEEN other people play Nathan's bass (and have saddled up to it myself several times), but Nathan is one of the few people you can actually HEAR playing his bass. The rest of us go home whimpering and nursing fresh blisters.
 
#10
Jsn said:
I appreciate your thoughts and considerations, Sam, Kev and Fog. Please be assured that playing technique, string choices, set up and the myriad of other tone factors are also part of the equation. But I am trying to get a sense of how some basses have more inherent volume than others, particularly without being too large-scale.

Perhaps it's ironic, but my quest for volume is to give me the option of playing more quietly--with more nuance and subtlety. Unamplified, I can dig in and punch through with my Kay, but that's a particular sound. When the singers and guitarists are trying to spin out delicate harmonies in a heartfelt love song, I feel my role is to add presence, not power.
Click to expand...


Ive been thinking about this thread for a while.

You really got my head spinning. Let me give you some advice.

1. If you want your bass to play quieter, pluck up higher on the fingerboard. If you want to deaden the tone, play with the flats of your fingers, as your probably not going to be playing a very busy line quietly. If this isnt enough, pluck the string gently more like a harpist would.

2. I sincerely doubt that your playing too loud on those lovesongs and ballads, especially if you play with care and caution. It would take a hell of a loud bass to overpower a singer and if she has a mic, there isnt any way this happens.

3. I know you want to add presence and nuance to your sound but if its soft and a ballad just do your job and play softly. Let them shine by letting them shine.

4. TL:DR: Read 1. You dont need a new bass, you need to change your perception of how you play softly because i bet no one else thinks its a problem.
 
#11
Yup, you can always play softer, but you can't always get as much power as you might want. So, if that's what you want/need, then it's good to start with a bass that has a powerful sound. Using the tips Violen mentioned, you can tone it down when you want.
 
#12
drurb said:
Yup, you can always play softer, but you can't always get as much power as you might want. So, if that's what you want/need, then it's good to start with a bass that has a powerful sound.
Click to expand...

Well, that's it exactly. I really appreciate everyone's insight, but perhaps I should clarify things here. Because suggestions that I a.) learn to play louder, b.) learn to play softer, c.) am probably already playing plenty loud and/or soft, and d.) don't need a new bass--while entirely worth consideration on their own merits--may veer us off the conversation I hope we can have.

I'm not frustrated with my Kay, nor blaming it for my own (considerable) limitations. Not planning on getting rid of it. But through a confluence of factors (completion of a multi-year project, a birthday coming up), I have an opportunity to complement it with a second instrument.

I'd naturally like that instrument to be usefully different from the Kay. So I'm intrigued when, for instance, LouisF posts, in a recent thread about big 'ol Swanson basses, that "one of the factors in selling the Swanson, was that I could get a bigger sound out of my (then brand new) Upton Karr Hybrid." Considering that the Karr is not only a hybrid, but one with smaller upper bouts and modest rib depth, I wonder how that's possible.

And I wonder how I, myself, might find a bigger sound without bigger scale. Some basses, it's clear, do a better job of this than others. That's where (I hope!) your expertise comes in.
 
#13
The size of a bass is one indicator of its potential for moving air, only one.
I suspect plate thickness, neck projection and overall quality of setup have a lot to do with it as well. I've settled on a lighter tailpiece and drumstick endpin, finding both to allow more resonance and volume.
Don't forget strings. My bass was the most responsive and had the most potential for maximum volume when strung with guts but I tired of the maintenance. It does quite well now with Evah regulars and an Olive G. When the entire bass is working as a unit and not wasting energy I believe it is capable of being what we would call 'loud'.
After experimenting with string heights I've found that higher strings can give more volume but at the expense of sustain and facility. Some guys can sound play very musically with a higher setup but it feels like chopping wood to me. 5-8mm is the sweet spot on my bass.
 
#15
Violen said:
Ok, so lets change the topic, it seems all things considered what im hearing is:

I wanna buy a new bass. I wanna loud bass.

5-6k, how far are you willing to travel?
Click to expand...

I think it's a matter of getting back on the topic. :) This is what the OP asked before things veered off course.
 
#16
Yes, we did get off.
Rather than try to tell the OP how to play, I thought I'd put in a few words about factors other than size that can affect volume, so I did.

Each bass is unique so I would definately recommend traveling and just playing a bunch.
 
#17
It's all good, folks. If/when I do get another bass, I'll still have to address the secondary point that's been raised thus far--namely, that the lion's share of tone relies more upon what's in my fingers than what's beneath them.

I do plan on playing a bunch of basses. (Can you believe that I had to miss the ISB last summer, when it was right here in town?). But before I go hither and yon, it's good to zero in on high-potential ones. Also, this time around at least I'm shying away from a custom-order, if only because I haven't had enough experience to zero in on what I'd specify.
 
#19
Violen said:
What Shops can you go to in your area?
Click to expand...

I can go to the ones here in the San Francisco bay area, and I'll probably poke my head around in Southern California as well. But it isn't just a matter of going to the shops; it's also driving (sometimes a good distance) to check out individual basses that people are selling. Hoping to discern in advance when those drives make sense.
 
#20
clink said:
Yes, we did get off.
Rather than try to tell the OP how to play, I thought I'd put in a few words about factors other than size that can affect volume, so I did.

Each bass is unique so I would definately recommend traveling and just playing a bunch.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and I thought your suggestions were quite on target and on topic. You offer more good advice by suggesting that the OP play a bunch of basses.

To the OP, while it's true that much of the sound is in the fingers, IMO, it matters very much what's under those fingers. If it didn't, we'd all be playing inexpensive ply basses. A good bass can't really compensate for poor technique and, yes, that must be developed first. My assumption is that you already know how to play, so your quest seems quite reasonable. The last time I upgraded, it was for a similar reason. There was just no way my former bass could sound anything like the bass I play now. Like so many things, it's not "A or B," it's "A and B" with some C, D, and E... thrown in. :)
 

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