Double Bass Lightness of touch (DB forum thread)

[damonsmith]

In free improvised music there is a ton of dynamic range, and making a ppp project and still be heard requires the use of things like resonance, and have the arm/shoulder couple the left hand to the fingerboard.
Arco practice is a good way to get in touch with resonance and basic projection.

Another trick is making an arch over the strings with the right hand while plucking instead of resting on them, then any harmonics on the other strings that might resonate with the notes you are playing can boost the sound through sympathetic vibration.
I learned that from John Lindberg.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I was channelling BAJO there for a minute.

Please don't do that.

 

[Marc Piane]

The other thing is just basic life stuff. Life with a family is complicated, then the gig at the U gets complicated and busy, then I find myself opting for reduction of my sleep deficit over practice at times and showing up at the next gig several days cold. That's a good recipe for hamburger helper right there.

Sounds like you answered you're own question at least in part.

You play with a fairly physically demanding setup too so I'd be careful about going into too many situations cold. You don't want to hurt yourself.

Thanks for the kudos too. For the record I wasn't fishing for compliments or being self deprecating. I just felt a little strange writing the things I did knowing full well a player like yourself was reading them. I also know that any of these threads are read by many that may also have the same issue so I was trying to paint with as broad a brush as possible.

 

[Marc Piane]

Another trick is making an arch over the strings with the right hand while plucking instead of resting on them, then any harmonics on the other strings that might resonate with the notes you are playing can boost the sound through sympathetic vibration.
I learned that from John Lindberg.

Dennis Irwin used to say that the best amplifier was playing in tune. Same kind of idea. You aren't gonna get sympathetic vibrations unless you are in tune.

Not an issue for DURRRL but your quote made me think of that.

 

[AMJBASS]

So I was "forced" to put gut on my new bass since the Helicores were too high tension on the D and G(Still have steel on the bottom). I can play at the same volume with half the effort now... We'll see what happens after a few gigs. One thing is for sure, they are WAY easier on the hands than steel.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey Chris
Haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize for any redundancies. I forgot, but what pickup are you using? With guts as I'm sure has been mentioned, Playing any harder than opimum you actually get LESS atack. I see so many young players pulling so hard and getting less sound. I've found that with certain pickups there is a stronger attack and thump. With guts this is crucial. I use the Full Circle which I find has a great sound and bloom, but has much less thump than say, a Gage. I hate the Gage pickup, but it does have a better attack envelope than a FC. Ron Carter used a Barcus with its godawful sound on those late 60's and 70's recordings. Crappy sound, but strong attack. I play Spiro Mittels: my action is medium low, but I've optimized my stroke so that I can pull very hard without bottoming out. I find with the FC that I pull harder to compesate for the softer atack. If I play the Gage, I don't pull as hard for the proper attack, but I hate the sound. With guts when you pull past the optimum point they hit that wall----so most people pull even harder (unconciously) to compensate. So they're pulling harder and getting less thump. I pull a lot harder with he FC than in the studio. Another problem with amplification is that as you turn the amp up after you get to a certain point, your volume may be louder, but you seem to get more diffuse, with less focus. I think this may be due to a couple of things. One, you load the stage and the room too much. I used to always do this.Two, is that your sending more energy from the amp back into the bass and reamplifying that which tends to cause phase anomalies and cancellation. I know the frustration of playing clubs with Tony Williams wannabees. You're playing harder and turning up and whatever you do seems to make matters worse. I've had to mentally readjust where I hear myself onstage down. I find that to my initial perception I'm too soft, but that things are hooking up better with the drummer and the groove is better.

 

[MR PC]

I play Spiro Mittels: my action is medium low, but I've optimized my stroke so that I can pull very hard without bottoming out.

Excellent post, light bulb moment! The same way a baseball player optimizes their focus when hitting a ball to the grandstand, or a painter optimizes a brush stroke on the canvas. In the success of the end result, it turns out that most always focus and intent are more productive than brute force.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Dennis Irwin used to say that the best amplifier was playing in tune.

I love that.

 

[Treyzer]

I know the frustration of playing clubs with Tony Williams wannabees. You're playing harder and turning up and whatever you do seems to make matters worse. I've had to mentally readjust where I hear myself onstage down. I find that to my initial perception I'm too soft, but that things are hooking up better with the drummer and the groove is better.

Mike,

That is a great explanation. It's counter-intuitive to resist turning up when you feel you're being drowned out but if you do resist, the results are far better!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Mike, thanks for the great post. I'm using a Full Circle with Dominants at 7-10mm From the G to the E.

 

[AMJBASS]

Agreed. Mike that is a great post! It is pretty amazing that if you play relaxed it doesn't matter the volume, the groove is still there.

I have found that raising the amp off of the floor(closer to my head) also helps. A lot of my gigs are Piano/Sax/Bass however, so this problem isn't huge for me. Another solution is find a drummer that understands dynamics

 

[Mike Arnopol]

The amp on the floor or raised is always the question to me. On the floor you couple with the floor and don't have to turn the bass control up. This works well in rooms where it's easy to overload the room with bass and therefore obscure yout sound. Raising the amp typically means that to achieve the same amount of bottom you turn the bass control up to achieve the same functional amount of bass. You get more definition clarity where you're standing, but as you turned the bass control up, you have the possibility of overloading the stage wih bass and thus obscuring your sound. For me it's on a case-by-case basis depending on the room.

 

[Marc Piane]

Definitely. And an amp by amp basis too. I use my GK MB150s for probably 80-90% of my gigs but IME that amp, if you are using it without an extension cab, has to be on the floor. I've heard other guys put it on a chair or whatever and it sounds anemic. Part of it is the goal of the amp too. I really just use that particular amp to add some 'size' to my sound but not to replace my acoustic sound. People dis that amp but I think it often comes from asking it to do something that it isn't really good for.

My AI/EA Wizzy 12 MLine rig is a different story. I use that amp when I have to be loud enough that all I really hear is the amp. Then I prefer putting it on an amp stand about 3 feet off the ground. If space allows I try to get it as far back as I can so those long wavelengths have a chance to develop before they reach my ear.

So how does this can relate to the hamburger issue? With less amplification I definitely have to remind myself to let up sometimes. I've found though that how hard you pull doesn't always directly correlate to volume either.

It's definitely tricky when you have that Tony Williams wannabe on stage when are just trying to support your sound but not crank up. As Mike pointed out it often turns into a competition anyways. One which the bass will almost always lose. If that is the case I just try to take more of a pitched drum approach and focus my efforts on making the bounce and drive paramount then the hippness of my pitch choices second. This may sound like a concession of sorts but I look at it more as what I can do in the situation to make the music happen. They are hearing the mix of bass and drums a certain way and you are hearing it another. A battle isn't going to make the music happen in invariably you are going to get your ass kicked in that particular 'fight' and everybody is going to go home pissy.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Another thing is EQ. I like my G string to sound really thick. lI have to be careful. Sometimes I boost the upper bass a bit too much. While this gives me a warmer, thicker sound, it can obscure the "thump" and attack. I go for a dark, but focused sound. So rather than boost the bass too much (which I used to do, causing the excess bass to obscure my attack and make me pull harder to cut through) I try to cut the midrange. Now, I love the Doubler and the fact that I have a choice of midrange center frequencies on the two channels, but for me I need a little more flexability. This isn't to dis the Doubler, it's just that there are just so many things you can pack into a front panel. And that bassists resist educating themselves as far as parametric eq. Parametric eq is a miracle worker, IMO. I'm addicted to using a Fishman Dual Parametric Direct box/EQ.(no longer made) I don't leave home without it. It has two fully parametric bands. I can bring down the exact frequency center, width, and depth of cut to tame the offensive (wide) midrange frequency range that I used to try to tame by turning the bass up too much. So I get my darker sound and can cut through without too much boom. As I've stated, for me, loading the stage and room with too much upper bass can obscure the functional part of our sound, which starts the unending cycle of turning up and pulling too hard because by turning up we're further obscuring the functional aspect of our sound. I know this through many years of hamburger hands.
The other part as was mentioned is tension in our playing. As Marc has eloquently mentioned when we use our large muscles and gravity to provide the pulling energy our thumb behaves as a balance fulcrum and our hand muscles are only used to support. When our hand muscles get too involved in the pulling game---hamburger hands. I won't teach students sitting down because you have to use arm muscles to support your right arm and you're cut off from using large muscles and gravity. For pizz. I know this becuse 25 years ago I was a sitting player with sore hands. I think it is critical to practice walking without the amp A LOT. You learn how to produce the biggest functional sound and can tell when you're pushing too hard. When you push too hard, you get less sound and then unconsciously push even harder. When you practice this where you can recognize tension and when it creeps in you can commit this all to muscle memory where no matter what's happening your body will tell you and you will naturally stop before you reach the tension point. Hamburger hands are ALWAYS caused by tension, whether it relates to the amp being used improperly or bad physical habits.

 

[Uncletoad]

I won't teach students sitting down because you have to use arm muscles to support your right arm and you're cut off from using large muscles and gravity. For pizz. I know this becuse 25 years ago I was a sitting player with sore hands.

This is interesting. I like this concept but seems to run counter to my experience. I'd like to have you expound a bit more on this here or in another thread.

I seem to play better sitting than standing although I'd very much prefer to stand(discussed in another thread). I find my hands are significantly freer without the inevitable support function they end up contributing while playing standing. Standing, I am incapable of holding the bass without some input from either hand to balance the bass. This eventually causes tension. When sitting I don't have to touch the bass with my hands at all and it just sits there waiting for me to play it with as much or as little tension as I like. As such I'm far more prone to hand issues standing than sitting.

I would love to find a spot standing where I had that much freedom. I think standing looks much cooler and I'd prefer to have my legs involved in movement when I play rather than just bass balance.

I think it is critical to practice walking without the amp A LOT. You learn how to produce the biggest functional sound and can tell when you're pushing too hard. When you push too hard, you get less sound and then unconsciously push even harder. When you practice this where you can recognize tension and when it creeps in you can commit this all to muscle memory where no matter what's happening your body will tell you and you will naturally stop before you reach the tension point. Hamburger hands are ALWAYS caused by tension, whether it relates to the amp being used improperly or bad physical habits.

This is the best reason I'd like to find more gigs where I don't use an amp at all. I never practice with an amp but when I play in ensembles without an amp I discover how far from an ideal gig worthy acoustic tone I am.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Sitting is cool for the left hand because gravity pulls the strings down more. But with sitting your right hand doesn't hang naturally --- you have to support it. So it's disconnected from the shoulder and back muscles. I worked pretty hard to get the standing balance point down. I can honestly say that my hands are so minimumly involved in balance that it's a non-issue. I'm going to get a lot of s%#t for this, but the Rabbath thing really weirds me out. I spent a lot of time with it when I was young, but for me, supporting the bass with your left thumb is an accident waiting to happen, but there are lots of world-class players that swear by it. As a jazzer I have the same criticism as for playing sitting----the right arm is held up similarly.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm going to get a lot of s%#t for this, but the Rabbath thing really weirds me out. I spent a lot of time with it when I was young, but for me, supporting the bass with your left thumb is an accident waiting to happen, but there are lots of world-class players that swear by it. As a jazzer I have the same criticism as for playing sitting----the right arm is held up similarly.

I don't understand what you mean by this. With the Rabbath style with the angled endpin, you hardly bring your left hand thumb into the mix at all as the bass is supported with your body and the left hand is really free. By the same token, I've been sitting a lot lately, and I really don't feel any difference in my right hand and arm. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I think that once you really understand about playing with a good , solid feel, you could probably play laying down and sill get a good feel. Which is why great players like you, or Buster and others still get a great feel seated. But I still think (at least from my vantage point) that playing standing involves your whole body and is ultimately better.At least with me, when I play seated, the bass sits at more of an angle so that I have to lift my elbow to get to the G string. And at least for pizz, that's my same criticism of holding your bass at more of an angle when standing like the Rabbath style. But it's been over 25 years since I studied that style, so maybe the gradual deterioration of my brain is causing me to misinterpret.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just for reference, the way I sit, the bass is fairly upright. If I were experiencing shoulder pain, I'd be worried that it comes from sitting. As it is, it's more of an index finger wrist thing that feels like it comes from exerting too much force.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Just for reference, the way I sit, the bass is fairly upright. If I were experiencing shoulder pain, I'd be worried that it comes from sitting. As it is, it's more of an index finger wrist thing that feels like it comes from exerting too much force.

Chris, try raising the endpin a notch and leaning the bass back more, similar to the Rabbath position, and see what happens.