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Double Bass Lightness of touch (DB forum thread)

#61
Don Higdon said:
When I consider the alternative, I settle down rather quickly.
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Amen to that. My brother and I moved our sister from one house to another this weekend. We did three 15' box truckloads from Friday at 4 PM until Saturday at 3 PM. Then I had a 4 hour (!) duo gig from 5-9. When I woke up on Sunday morning, my right arm felt like I'd stuck it into a woodchipper up to the elbow. I've never had elbow pain from playing pizz before, so I'll chalk that up to the lifting...

Still, as you mention, all things considered life is good. :)

Regarding the volume issue, it's an adjustment I'm always trying to get right. My mantra from the beginning has always been to pull a good strong acoustic sound and use as little amplification as possible. The longer I work on this, the more I realize that there are outside limits to both the loud and the soft, and that these should be reserved for their corresponding spots in the music. Also, piezo pickups react differently to a soft stroke and a hard stroke, and when I can synchronize the points where the acoustic and amplified sounds start to fart out to be roughly the same, that would leave the regulating to my ears, which seem to function much better than my brain in this regard.
 
#62
ehochberg said:
Since my injury 3 years ago, I've been concentrating on a minimal tension technique. I agree, it's the best thing that happened to me, too. I've learned so much about my body and how to get the most out of playing with the least amount of wear. That's been paramount to my recovery. I try and impart this concept to my students, too. It pays to be efficient in our work, especially as we get older!
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After playing for many years with a left hand death grip I developed tennis elbow. I was lucky to find a classical teacher to retrain me. Irving Steinberg told me things like touch the string without pressing down (just on the harmonic) and feel how easy and relaxed that is. Then gradually press down until the notes sounds while keeping that same relaxed feeling. That's all you need. You need that loosness for a good vibrato. You can't muscle the bass. I could play much faster with a better sound after my study with Irving.
 
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#63
I know this is in the jazz technique section, but I am finding that much of what y'all have to say is relevant to playing classical music as well. There are many times when playing in an orchestra that the volume of the ensemble grows beyond what I can keep up with. I used to try and follow along and ended up overplaying the instrument and getting a poor tone. It still happens, but now I try to always put getting a good tone before anything else. You have to remember that the double bass operates in a sonic zone that no other instrument touches. As long you're playing with a solid tone and good intonation, your sound will get out there.
 
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#64
JoeyNaeger said:
I know this is in the jazz technique section, but I am finding that much of what y'all have to say is relevant to playing classical music as well. There are many times when playing in an orchestra that the volume of the ensemble grows beyond what I can keep up with. I used to try and follow along and ended up overplaying the instrument and getting a poor tone. It still happens, but now I try to always put getting a good tone before anything else. You have to remember that the double bass operates in a sonic zone that no other instrument touches. As long you're playing with a solid tone and good intonation, your sound will get out there.
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Good thoughts! No matter what kind of music is involved classical training is so valuable for sound quality, technique & musicianship.
 
#65
Great Thread!

I played a marathon gig this past Sunday and after a few hours (with a few more to go), my pointer finger on my pizz hand felt great -- when it wasn't pizzing. Every time I put pointer to the strings it was in pain and cramping etc. I thought for sure I would know even more about it the next day, or worse the day thereafter -- "second-day syndrome", which I often get after overextending myself MTBing. Playing noon to seven with hardly a break, I shan't do that again!

As an older noob, I think I'm even more susceptible to injury than the young guns taking up the instrument. I've already got bass elbow (pizz side), been through therapy and acupuncture, still recovering. So, once again, great thread, VERY INSPIRING. I look forward to putting many of these ideas into practice, revisit basics of posture, technique, practice in front of a mirror, experiment with finding the sweet spot in coaxing the string to speak instead of forcing it, taking more lessons...

One quick thought on standing versus sitting: individual physicality. While it has been alluded to elsewhere in the thread, it hasn't been paid enough attention in regards to standing versus sitting. Anyway, we're all built differently so what works for/sounds good to/hurts you will vary greatly from others. Dang, if I'm not good at stating the obvious!
 
#66
Subscribe. A most inspiring and informative thread. Lots of great information for me to work with. I have a chronic shoulder issue, on the right/pizz side, that leads to elbow and finger issues. Regular maintenance with an RMT and other techniques helps me get through it. It may or may not be bass related but playing bass doesn't help it. But playing the DB feeds my 43 year old soul. Some ideas in this thread are sure to help further my recovery.
 
#67
Chris what part of your hand is getting raw ? Since you don't play in this manner all the time and binge on it at gigs/Big cat jam's you should identify the area's and then build up the callus with the time you spend off the bass let me know I may have method's for you to build the Callus in those area's so you don't tear up your hand in that location .
 
#68
Mr.Bassist said:
Chris what part of your hand is getting raw ? Since you don't play in this manner all the time and binge on it at gigs/Big cat jam's you should identify the area's and then build up the callus with the time you spend off the bass let me know I may have method's for you to build the Callus in those area's so you don't tear up your hand in that location .
Click to expand...

The calluses hurt when I binge, but I don't worry so much about that - that's just part of playing the bass. The part that was hurting recently was my right elbow. I've identified the motion that causes the pain, and as I suspected it's more of an issue of showing up to the gig with "Educator Chops". When I practice and warm up, that motion smoothes itself out and becomes healthy. When I don't... :hmm:
 
#69
Marcus Johnson said:
Guts, baby.

... or I can just bounce along like a big old Chrysler Dynaflow, wavin' at the girls....
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It's a Buick Dynaflow. Sorry, that's the Detroit newspaper editor in me coming out.

Maybe I didn't read all of this thread with my work eyes, but does anybody else get a pain in their left elbow after playing? That's happened to me after the last three or four gigs, and it's got me worried.

Two summers ago, I played a blues festival in Jackson. I arrived five minutes AFTER we were scheduled to hit, pulled my bass out of the bag, jumped on stage and played a butt-kicking one-hour set.

My right forearm was on fire by the second song and I could barely use it for a few days.

Many lessons learned: Warm up, play relaxed, drink lots of water to fend off dehydration, and leave earlier for gigs.

So, anyone have left elbow issues?
 
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#70
Progress report:

Lots of stuff going on. First, I've been heavy into Kempo and Jiu Jitsu since February. The whole "lightness" issue is paramount in both arts, but especially the Jiu Jitsu, which is basically a grappling art. Too much force gripping, and you can barely move your fingers the next day. But I watch and (when I'm lucky) roll with the higher rank guys and they've got it down to a flow of relaxed motion rather than a show of force - basically exactly what we're talking about here, and it serves as a great twice-weekly reminder from another arena.

Second, the elbow injury is finally starting to heal, which helps a lot. Turns out I must have been compensating in the hand/wrist somehow.

Third, I finally changed out my 5 year old Dominants and my old and failing Full Circle pickup on the main bass. With the brighter strings and greater output, I have more of an amplified dynamic range at my disposal, which is a lot more like playing acoustically. I think this may be the key, as things have been going a lot better and everything is more musical without as much strain (actually, much of this was done with the new ply bass, which has a new pickup and new spiros on it, but the main axe now has a new pickup and new Doms on it as well, and is singing like a beautiful bird).

I'm especially fascinated by the parallels between the martial arts issues and the musical ones, both as relates to physical approach and the overall result. I noticed this 20 years ago with Aikido and the piano, and it's still true today for me. Never too late to keep learning, no?
 
#72
I was thinking of posting my own stoke but saw that Durrl touched up this thread and I needed somewhere to write esotericly without being laughed at too badly. :D

Recently, I started messing with the stick o' pain again and bought some Rabbath videos while he was at it. I started thinking about his concept of the arm being the bow - not the bow itself. In the DVD he talks about letting the body's weight be most of the force in sounding the strings and mentioning things about body density. About how the arm's density is part of ones sound. Things like this is where some of my MA and to some extent experience with other sports and meditation came in: making the hand's density be part of my pizz sound while maintaining a lightness in movement. Letting gravity do the work.

And using your awareness to sense the areas where the hand is tense and fighting the act of "relaxing" into a string pull. Being aware of your hand's density and letting it do the work of making the sound fatter without losing any speed/agility. It's just a transfer of feeling by acquiring it on the bow and transfering it to the fingers.

And oh yeah... more and more, I find parallels between Aikido and arco. The bow sounds twice as good if you're mindful of being present and projecting yourself, esp through "the center". If I don't project internally, the sound collapses and this sort of fearful playing takes over.
 
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#73
saw a reggae player years ago at SEA WORLD, his touch and tone was simply amazing !!!

I asked him after their show how he played so smoothly.. he said... turn the amp up and let the speakers do all the work.

He showed me how loud his amp was, but he was just brushing over strings with right hand... which made the smoothest sound I've ever heard, that cat was amazing, and he totally changed my style of playing from that moment on.

the amount of control he had in both hands to keep the excessive volume from making everything ring, was incredible..

there's a point hidden in this story somewhere.. :)
 
#76
It's simple: pull to soft you get no sound. Pull too hard and the instrument's sound can get choked up. Also pulling too hard all the time will tired you out and give you blisters. It's about finding that happy medium. And with relaxation comes speed.
 
#78
Choked up is maybe not the best descriptor. Impeded perhaps.

The bass can only put out a finite amount of volume no matter how much energy you put into it. If you pull harder than is required for maximum volume that effort is wasted on the bass and can actually impede it's movement when you go to far past what is required for maximum acoustic output. There is a sweet spot in the pull of the finger or the draw of the bow where you are exerting just enough energy to obtain maximum volume but not so much that you are dampening down the natural ring of the plates.

It's a subtle spot, I go past it all the time. When I hit the sweet spot the bass sounds great, projects well and I don't get tired playing. When I go past it I work to hard, don't get as clear or useful a tone and I end up worn out by gigs end.
 
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#79
I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply just physics and something where the sound starts to destructively interfere with themselves. Pulling too hard in a way that overwhelms the bass' beautiful "sweet spot" sound.
 
#80
When I think of a huge sound, I think of Christian Mcbride

I suffer from these things as well, arm pain and stamina, like everyone. I saw a christian lesson that helped me a lot. You should check it out. its on mike's master classes website.

Basically, he was saying how he got into the high action big sound thing, and realized he was getting worn out and producing an ugly sound, a big boom with an overtone of a pitch.

He then started to focus on lowering his action (I think 5-8mm) And focused on the end of the fingerboard, creating a clear fundamental. This will produce the most accurate and clear pitch, with good punch, and not too much strain.

If you really want a bigger sound, like larry grenadier or christian, take that approach, and buy a cannon of a bass with a deep low end, and stick a microphone on it. You'll have what your looking for.
 

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