Double Bass Lightness of touch (DB forum thread)

[Huy Nguyen]

One of the things I've been working for a while now has been to treat RH pizz as and extention (or even a punching) of the finger tips through the fingers. I started looking at this mainly to avoid blisters - which is mostly coming from the shearing force applied on the finger when you pull on the string. The extreme case is the way RAB slap players pull, it's pretty much 90% shearing forces on the finger tips. When I play that way it's instant blisters.

In the case of using the "chicken wing", or the drop of the wrist, the thumb sorta becomes a fulcrum to which the hand rotates upward as the notes get "pulled". As the wrist drops past the level of the knuckles (with the rest of the arm weight), the fingers push through the strings. To me, this definitely reduces the shearing motions and incorporates more finger meat, although it can be a little slow as you have to drop the big mass of the arm to get it going.

The alternative I've been working with is to actually sorta reverse the chicken wing. Extend through the fingers, pushing or punching the finger tips through the string. You can think of this as raising the wrist rather than dropping it, but with one addition: a slight rotation of the hand along the axis of the arm. Pizz with the middle finger rotates the hand outward (thumb moves away from me), pizz with the index moves inward. Combing both the extension and the rotation, it forms a spiral like motion where the entire mass of the arm comes into play but even less movement. The rotation is tiny, probably imperceptible as you advance but I found it helpful to emphasize it when I was figuring it out. Add to this a slight swinging of the elbow outward and inward and you have this technique that is specific to each finger.

The result is that I get a fat sound as all of the density of my arm is incorporated, and can in a way eliminate the chicken wing altogether. Speed is a little better since there are many but smaller movements, and I don't have to rely on a thumb anchor but it does help stabilize things. I'm punching through the pads of the fingers and string just flops off - there's even less shearing forces so I don't get many blisters anymore. The thumb just keeps the hand in a more consistent place but doesn't provide any counter-force support. But the draw back is that the motions of the two spirals can make things sound inconsistent between the two fingers, also there is seemingly a speed limit to me.

The old school two finger pull might still be the fastest but it takes time to develop that too.

Anyways, I can play a long time effortlessly this way and it brings into play all the large muscle groups in the shoulder and back. I only get blisters now if I go after hard phrases during a solo and pushing my technique to the limit. I practice walking occasionally at 240-300bpm to stay conditioned and trying to push up the speed limit when possible.

I'll occasionally work on this to even it out but effectively I've added another trick to the bag and have an additional tool that uses the muscles differently. This approach serves well for walking but I think you still need to have all those other tricks as well for other purposes.

More tricks = more uses of different muscles = less burnout.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In the case of using the "chicken wing", or the drop of the wrist, the thumb sorta becomes a fulcrum to which the hand rotates upward as the notes get "pulled". As the wrist drops past the level of the knuckles (with the rest of the arm weight), the fingers push through the strings. To me, this definitely reduces the shearing motions and incorporates more finger meat, although it can be a little slow as you have to drop the big mass of the arm to get it going.

The alternative I've been working with is to actually sorta reverse the chicken wing. Extend through the fingers, pushing or punching the finger tips through the string. You can think of this as raising the wrist rather than dropping it, but with one addition: a slight rotation of the hand along the axis of the arm. Pizz with the middle finger rotates the hand outward (thumb moves away from me), pizz with the index moves inward. Combing both the extension and the rotation, it forms a spiral like motion where the entire mass of the arm comes into play but even less movement. The rotation is tiny, probably imperceptible as you advance but I found it helpful to emphasize it when I was figuring it out. Add to this a slight swinging of the elbow outward and inward and you have this technique that is specific to each finger.

The result is that I get a fat sound as all of the density of my arm is incorporated, and can in a way eliminate the chicken wing altogether. Speed is a little better since there are many but smaller movements, and I don't have to rely on a thumb anchor but it does help stabilize things. I'm punching through the pads of the fingers and string just flops off - there's even less shearing forces so I don't get many blisters anymore. The thumb just keeps the hand in a more consistent place but doesn't provide any counter-force support. But the draw back is that the motions of the two spirals can make things sound inconsistent between the two fingers, also there is seemingly a speed limit to me.

Great observations and breakdown above. For years I have been combining the two motions - chicken wing and "up wrist rotation" - into the accented and unaccented groupings of notes and subdivisions I called "Permutations" in one of the older videos in my series. I think both are very important. When I get "out of shape", the mechanism isn't calibrated properly and I fall back into to much chicken wing... and we all know too much fried chicken can ruin the digestion!

 

[damonsmith]

There is a lot of antics in the beginning but around 2:30 or so he starts playing pizz unamplified and fills the room just barely using one finger:

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Great observations and breakdown above. For years I have been combining the two motions - chicken wing and "up wrist rotation" - into the accented and unaccented groupings of notes and subdivisions I called "Permutations" in one of the older videos in my series. I think both are very important. When I get "out of shape", the mechanism isn't calibrated properly and I fall back into to much chicken wing... and we all know too much fried chicken can ruin the digestion!

Yes it's been a while but I did watch your video when it was first posted. I think the only diff is that I'm focusing only on the up-wrist/rotation and skipping the wrist drop. As the index plays the note, the middle finger begins to retract. When it's done the wrist rotates outward as the middle finger initiates it's pull and the index begins to retract. The effect is kinda like a swimming motion, where each finger is punching into the next string like a swimmers arms. The hand tilts back a forth (again almost imperceptibly) like the swimmers torso. Effectively, the movement is initiated by the palm with the fingers extending out for each stroke.

Certainly I can mix&match and combine all the techniques to form groupings as well.

 

[Reiska]

Hmmm. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here. Personally, I've found that most of my technique problems / pain is the result of my unwise transfer of my BG technique to the upright. For example, recently, I discovered that on the upright, I need to lead off fast passages with my middle finger, not with the index like on the BG. I was not only able to execute more smoothly, but the pain I felt after playing one certain song went away.

You mentioned that your BG technique helped you refine your right-hand thumb placement. I also was having right thumb problems, but my issue was not a callous; I was unconsciously collapsing my thumb due to holding it on the edge of the fingerboard. I solved the issue by hooking my right thumb behind the fingerboard, and really like how this has eliminated the joint popping and pain. Plus, I think I can execute faster passages more smoothly, as the hooked thumb provides a more stable pivot point for my fingers.

No criticism intended. Different strokes for different folks (literally). You should use the techniques that work for you. I just find it interesting how we each develop different techniques to deal with our issues.

Agree. I'm with you on the "deep thumb hook" position. My callus is basically in the webbing between the thumb and index finger. But I've spent time around a lot of really great players, and most have their own individual take on this. So again...many roads to Rome. As long as you get to have lunch with the pope eventually, it's all good.

Great points from both of you, thanks. What I mean, but wrote poorly earlier, is propably that playing and shedding on slab has helped me to lighten my touch on the DB without sacrifising quality and power of sound. This has to do more on learning how to relax while playing than anything else, I think. For me it is more natural to lead with the 2nd finger too, both on slab and upright

Have to say that as a player you both propably are lightyears ahead comparing to my still beginner dabbling. About Chris I know that for sure because I`ve checked his stuff pretty closely on the YT

Reiska

 

[Huy Nguyen]

One thing about the pacing/burnout issue, I have somehow concluded that I no longer care to compete volumewise with others. I took the "playing in tune is the best amplifier" advice to heart. Frankly, if they're playing so loud that I'm getting drowned out, thats fine by me - it's less work and it'll bury any clams I make.

These days I prefer to save my stamina for my solo when I really want to make a statement. Otherwise I'm not going to bend over backward if someone is trying to outdo themselves. Sides, the more they play, the more you can hear them (and probably me) if I play less.

I just think now that if someone plays real loud and you come up in volume or note density to compete, it's just diminishing returns as everything starts down the path of turning into mud.

 

[AMJBASS]

One thing about the pacing/burnout issue, I have somehow concluded that I no longer care to compete volumewise with others. I took the "playing in tune is the best amplifier" advice to heart. Frankly, if they're playing so loud that I'm getting drowned out, thats fine by me - it's less work and it'll bury any clams I make.

These days I prefer to save my stamina for my solo when I really want to make a statement. Otherwise I'm not going to bend over backward if someone is trying to outdo themselves. Sides, the more they play, the more you can hear them (and probably me) if I play less.

I just think now that if someone plays real loud and you come up in volume or note density to compete, it's just diminishing returns as everything starts down the path of turning into mud.

This is a very good point. I have adopted this train of thinking as well. I don't think music should be a competition, and if the volume goes up I find just relaxing and not digging in tends to work much better. There is a point where the bass just doesn't speak as well when you over play. You don't need a lot of volume if you have a great sound and you play in tune. It will carry.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I don't think that people are necessarily trying to compete but when the adrenaline kicks up, thats when you start fighting the sound with the instrument. Keeping your powder dry can be hard to do when the music is on and you're feeling good.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Keeping your powder dry can be hard to do when the music is on and you're feeling good.

Nice way to sum it up. For me it's always a subconscious thing involving hearing the bass occupying a certain space in the mix and just keeping it in that range. When the rest of the band starts peaking, it's normal to want to push the envelope with them, but sometimes they stay there and ask for more. I think the situation is more complicated than simply being a matter of volume or "loud", but more a matter of intensity. For years I've heard teachers and bandleaders tell drummers the phrase that every drummer dreads the most: "play with exactly the same intensity, but with half the volume". I know why they always groan when someone says that, but most of the time I also understand why it was said. Riding those waves of musical intensity to their release points can feel cathartic, and it's hard not to give those moments a little extra juice.

Since good musicians listen and respond to each other, it's only natural, as in the old lovers' cliche "one thing led to another, and before we knew it...". It also doesn't help that audiences feed off that same energy and reward it with their own energy.

But somewhere in that phrase so dreaded by drummers lies a goodly portion of the answer. I need to explore that further.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

I had this happen last night at rehearsal with our piano trio. We were playing Caravan, and the piano player and drummer had a very heavy and busy pulse going. After struggling to fit into the intensity, I finally decided to relax and play fewer notes but place them in the spaces where they would be most effective - kind of a counter-rhythm that simply supported them without adding more notes to the musical chaos.

 

[Don Kasper]

When people speak of string height, what is the measurement? End of board to bottom of string? Top? Center?

Measure at the end of the fingerboard - the (perpendicular) distance from the fingerboard surface to the bottom of the string (at rest). You're measuring the gap between the fingerboard and the string.
This is a very common and widely used indicator of how the bridge curvature and height is carrying the strings.
It is worthwhile to measure all 4 (or 5) strings, BTW. The gap typically increases as the string gets heavier, i.e., most players have the G string the lowest and the E string the highest, even if just by a few mm.
Thanks,

 

[Tom Lane]

I think I was taught to measure at the octave, from fingerboard to bottom of the string because fingerboard lengths aren't standardized. No?

 

[Don Kasper]

I think I was taught to measure at the octave, from fingerboard to bottom of the string because fingerboard lengths aren't standardized. No?

I believe that luthiers use the curvature of the fingerboard, (as it appears at the end of fingerboard), as the template for the measuring, cutting and shaping of the bridge curvature.
I could be wrong. Hmmm.....
The resulting "action" of the whole fingerboard is determined by the relief (or scoop) of the fingerboard. This could vary, based upon the amount of relief (or scoop), lots or little, from Nut to End Of Fingerboard.
I Am Not A Luthier.
Thanks.

 

[damonsmith]

It is always best not to participate in an arms race. I've told younger musicians to turn down or play quieter in the middle of a set. I really only bring an amp for a great drummer - when the music will be better if they are free to go off, or if I want to do effects with a volume pedal.
Not too long ago, I had a set where we did a rehearsal with acoustic guitar & bass, trombone and recorder. The guitarist showed up to the gig (a door gig with the money going to the traveling musician) with an amp (a small Marshall but a Marshall!). I didn't even unload my gear, I gave him the option to do the use the instrumentation we rehearsed when he wouldn't relent I went home and dropped my gear.

One thing about the pacing/burnout issue, I have somehow concluded that I no longer care to compete volumewise with others. I took the "playing in tune is the best amplifier" advice to heart. Frankly, if they're playing so loud that I'm getting drowned out, thats fine by me - it's less work and it'll bury any clams I make.

These days I prefer to save my stamina for my solo when I really want to make a statement. Otherwise I'm not going to bend over backward if someone is trying to outdo themselves. Sides, the more they play, the more you can hear them (and probably me) if I play less.

I just think now that if someone plays real loud and you come up in volume or note density to compete, it's just diminishing returns as everything starts down the path of turning into mud.

 

[Dogbertday]

I've found that i play "harder" when im playing with weaker players, as in im trying to over compensate for whatever isnt happenin in the band.

I've also struggled when the band's energy is flying as well, you want to join in the fun. Rufus Reid (i think, it could be eddie gomez instead) uses a volume pedal with his amp for this purpose, but i play without an amp too often for this. I do have pedals i could use in certain situations if i wanted to, maybe i will if my gigs change enough.

After all that, ill agree that relaxing into it is the best option in general.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I think the situation is more complicated than simply being a matter of volume or "loud", but more a matter of intensity. For years I've heard teachers and bandleaders tell drummers the phrase that every drummer dreads the most: "play with exactly the same intensity, but with half the volume". I know why they always groan when someone says that, but most of the time I also understand why it was said. Riding those waves of musical intensity to their release points can feel cathartic, and it's hard not to give those moments a little extra juice.

On recent gigs, I've been experimenting with this, where holding back isn't about not competing or aversion, I'm trying to look at it from the bigger picture; that I'm building tension. As corny as it may sound, it is a little bit like good sex. It's usually more enjoyable for the partner if you draw out the tension, coming up close to the precipice, but never going over. Too quick or too eager and it's a bit too predictable and mechanical.

BTW: What woman wouldn't appreciate a little bit of "lightness of touch"?

Anyways, in writing the above it's the unpredictability that I think that's what makes things extra-exciting. And when the release from that tension arrives it's something big and different than what people would expect. I've only been doing this recently so I can't really attest to the results, nor am I playing with big name players.

I would say that it's not anything new and could be found in the recordings of the greats, if you listened closely enough and felt what was going on.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

OMT: from past experience that if every player follows what's comfortable and what's familiar every time things amp up, there's certainly a tendency to approach the music in the same way. It becomes a little too much like a muscle. Every time reaches a similar peak, the music starts to capture the same feel as it's does intensity. The bad part is that it starts to make things sound the same.

I've seen this in my own performances as well as at shows for players that I admire. Even if the head may be composed different from another song, once the solos kick in and the music peaks it starts to sound similar as the previous instance. A simplistic example is that you come off a fast tune and everything feels so good, you reach for a ballad for the next tune, and then everyone's wanting to fall into soloing in double time - it's not a ballad anymore.

The artists I admire most seem conscientious about color and contrast for every tune they play. Every tune becomes a different experience, and not too many tunes fall into similarity traps.

 

[rolandm]

Just an interesting observation, from someone who has far less DB experience than everyone else on here, but having a massage therapist work the major muscle groups used when playing can be a godsend. I am on a once a week regimen for a shoulder and elbow injury from a fall, and we've done a lot of work on my hands as well. It helps.

Also, I use IEMs to monitor myself vs. an amp and/or stage monitor. I typically add in a LOT of my bass so I step off the instrument substantially in terms of right had technique. I've come to find that, with the right mix, I relax a great deal and play with a much better tone, whether fast passages on my fingertips, punchy bits two-fingered, or big fat notes up to my second knuckle.

Granted, when you're doing a duet, it helps to have a partner who appreciates bass and doesn't take advantage of your not knowing how it sounds out front.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I've been dealing with some lower back issues lately and had to have a family member give me a real back adjustment (she's a chiropractor). Many things were out of whack: shoulders, neck, lower back. Today there's less stress on the lower back (still tight tho) and now there's more tension in my upper shoulders. I'm having to go back to stretching, some minor yoga, abs strengthening, etc. Not trying to whine but my point is that sometimes physical and bodily blocks arise and we have to find a way through it, and sometimes it also means establishing a new equilibrium.

Investing in a theracane, a couple tennis balls, and learning a little bit about myo-fascial release has been a god send. It hasn't fixed all my ails but I can find a little bit of relief quickly. Check it out.

 

[kerrycares]