Double Bass Lightness of touch (DB forum thread)

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Amazing playing from Mr. McBride as usual, in spite of the fact that according to the traditional technical wisdom, he's breaking a bunch of "rules" like collapsing the fingers in his left hand and collapsing the knuckles in the plucking fingers of his right hand. Watching him reinforces my inner Joseph Campbell: “If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it's not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path.” Great inquisitive minds will tend to explore in the same sorts of directions, but they will take different routes and modes of transportation. “If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's.”

[rambling rumination]
Have been thinking about these things as I practice on the new short scale fretless travel bass and tweak setup. I've got a couple of months to become proficient enough to use it in performance if needed, and am rediscovering all sorts of technical paradigms, hurdles to overcome. Like how to play even two-finger rest strokes with a vertically oriented right hand when the two fingers are drastically different lengths. Watching McBride play electric with his huge mitts, he simply curves the middle finger to compensate for the difference and is still able to keep the hand upright. Tal Wilkenfeld, who has much smaller hands, is able to keep the right wrist much straighter - which is healthy for the wrist - but as a result comes at the strings from a different angle not parallel to the board. Both obviously sound amazing.

What can I take from this? Obviously, a short scale BG is not as physically daunting as a DB, but especially for the right hand, they are completely different instruments. The trick will be to find a light way to play that still carries musical weight, that still conveys strong tone, intention, and conviction. And hopefully if and when I find it, I can take some of what was found back to the DB and let that inform things there.
[/rambling rumination]

 

[gerry grable]

Amazing playing from Mr. McBride as usual, in spite of the fact that according to the traditional technical wisdom, he's breaking a bunch of "rules" like collapsing the fingers in his left hand and collapsing the knuckles in the plucking fingers of his right hand. Watching him reinforces my inner Joseph Campbell: “If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it's not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path.” Great inquisitive minds will tend to explore in the same sorts of directions, but they will take different routes and modes of transportation. “If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's.”

[rambling rumination]
Have been thinking about these things as I practice on the new short scale fretless travel bass and tweak setup. I've got a couple of months to become proficient enough to use it in performance if needed, and am rediscovering all sorts of technical paradigms, hurdles to overcome. Like how to play even two-finger rest strokes with a vertically oriented right hand when the two fingers are drastically different lengths. Watching McBride play electric with his huge mitts, he simply curves the middle finger to compensate for the difference and is still able to keep the hand upright. Tal Wilkenfeld, who has much smaller hands, is able to keep the right wrist much straighter - which is healthy for the wrist - but as a result comes at the strings from a different angle not parallel to the board. Both obviously sound amazing.

What can I take from this? Obviously, a short scale BG is not as physically daunting as a DB, but especially for the right hand, they are completely different instruments. The trick will be to find a light way to play that still carries musical weight, that still conveys strong tone, intention, and conviction. And hopefully if and when I find it, I can take some of what was found back to the DB and let that inform things there.
[/rambling rumination]

With all due respect, Chris, I really think that you are over-thinking this. I believe you should just do what feels comfortable and your right hand will adjust and adapt. I, for one, change my right hand position and angles often, even within one tune. Some times I play from the side ( I call it the Ray Brown method) of my two fingers, other times I float using the vertical (Flamenco method) style with tips of my first three fingers. My thumb is always anchored lightly on the side of the board. Also, I change positions on the fingerboard from mid string for round tones, to closer to the end of the fingerboard for more percussive notes. I never play at the very end of the fingerboard since I just don't like to get my fingers sticky from the rosin. I do the same for fender (bass guitar), though I've always had the problem of digging in too hard. I just can't play light like Wooten and Jaco. To compensate, I usually have the amp at a much lower volume than most fender players would use. One request I've gotten most often from bands is to "turn up your volume." How many fender players can say that?

 

[peterpalmieri]

Amazing playing from Mr. McBride as usual, in spite of the fact that according to the traditional technical wisdom, he's breaking a bunch of "rules" like collapsing the fingers in his left hand and collapsing the knuckles in the plucking fingers of his right hand. Watching him reinforces my inner Joseph Campbell: “If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it's not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path.” Great inquisitive minds will tend to explore in the same sorts of directions, but they will take different routes and modes of transportation. “If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's.”

[rambling rumination]
Have been thinking about these things as I practice on the new short scale fretless travel bass and tweak setup. I've got a couple of months to become proficient enough to use it in performance if needed, and am rediscovering all sorts of technical paradigms, hurdles to overcome. Like how to play even two-finger rest strokes with a vertically oriented right hand when the two fingers are drastically different lengths. Watching McBride play electric with his huge mitts, he simply curves the middle finger to compensate for the difference and is still able to keep the hand upright. Tal Wilkenfeld, who has much smaller hands, is able to keep the right wrist much straighter - which is healthy for the wrist - but as a result comes at the strings from a different angle not parallel to the board. Both obviously sound amazing.

What can I take from this? Obviously, a short scale BG is not as physically daunting as a DB, but especially for the right hand, they are completely different instruments. The trick will be to find a light way to play that still carries musical weight, that still conveys strong tone, intention, and conviction. And hopefully if and when I find it, I can take some of what was found back to the DB and let that inform things there.
[/rambling rumination]

As far as Christian goes I don't even know what to say, talk about effortless, it's just amazing. Chris as far as the Electric goes find some videos of John Patitucci playing his new album Brooklyn. His right hand command is pretty incredible...

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

Anthony Jackson is another player with incredible right hand technique (and not just his thumb/palm muting).

 

[Don Kasper]

Just noticed that this thread, "Lightness of touch", is adjacent to a thread entitled - "Playing without an amp".
It's a Yin Yang World, out there, my friends.
Perhaps we need a new thread - "Can You Hear Me NOW?", or "Digging In - How Much is Enough, and is Enough Too Much?"
Thanks.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I admit I could easily be overthinking. I use all kinds of RH attacks on the DB, but there is a basic rest stroke that it's all built on. Just trying to find that basic central starting position on BG right now. It will come eventually!

 

[Les Fret]

Have been thinking about these things as I practice on the new short scale fretless travel bass and tweak setup. I've got a couple of months to become proficient enough to use it in performance if needed, and am rediscovering all sorts of technical paradigms, hurdles to overcome. Like how to play even two-finger rest strokes with a vertically oriented right hand when the two fingers are drastically different lengths.

Not sure if I understand you correctly. The fact that the middle finger is longer is not a problem on electric bass because you play in a 90 degree angle on the string. Therefor your middle finger is just as long as your index finger. On double bass this is much more a 'problem' because with traditional two finger technique you play more in a 45 degree angle. Therefor you really feel that your middle finger is longer. Making some string crossings really awkward. Like playing the D string with index finger and G string with middle finger. On electric bass this is easy but on double bass it feels awkward and that is why most players reverse the strokes, so middle finger on D and index on G. That is also why strings crossings are more difficult on double bass when you play traditional two finger technique. If you play more perpendicular like on electric bass (the way Eddie Gomez plays most of the time when he is soloing) it becomes easier and faster again. Of course there are all kinds of variables and 'in between' techniques.

I agree with gerry gable that in the long run you have to develop your own way of doing it and forgot about the rules or conventions. The more ways you are able to strike the strings the better. And also fast switching between all these possible ways can be crucial (for me it is anyway).

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Not sure if I understand you correctly. The fact that the middle finger is longer is not a problem on electric bass because you play in a 90 degree angle on the string. Therefor your middle finger is just as long as your index finger.

If I stand them straight up without bending them, as in a classical guitar rest stroke, the middle finger is considerably longer. If the fingers were to walk across my desk, it would be the walk of one person with their right leg about 4 inches longer than their left.





I love the authoritative thump of that rest stroke - it has the same basic string excursion as the side of the finger DB stroke in that it gets the string vibrating parallel to the board, and the follow through produces that lovely percussive "thunk" on the next string - but am just working the kinks out. And you are both right that I just need to do it a lot to figure it out. But since this is Talkbass, I thought maybe I might learn something from someone who's been through it before, so... I'm not looking for rules, per se, but a friendly "watch out for the snake over there... little tosser bit me last week" or the like would certainly be welcome.

I practiced a few hours last night, practicing bursts of attacks in the middle of steady groove, and made a lot of progress with the rest stroke. The other thing I mentioned earlier, the position and angle of the wrist, is still up in the air. With classical guitar training, the wrist is pretty bent as the arm rests on the side of the body. It's a great position for putting the fingers in place to strike the string, but not the most relaxed position to hold the hand in for extended periods of time. I'll be looking into finding a compromise there.

I agree with you about the DB fingering stuff. Funny that it feels so natural at this point while straight up and down feels so foreign. This, too, shall pass.

 

[Les Fret]

Chris, this very basic video might interest you. You can use both the rest stroke and the free stroke on electric bass. I use the free stroke for more chordal guitar like playing on electric bass. I have studied classical guitar so both rest stroke and free stroke are used on classical guitar exactly like on electric bass. I even try the free stroke sometimes on double bass as well for ringing chord arpeggios in TP for example. I even throw in my right hand thumb sometimes. Why not? as long as it sounds good.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Your Rob Allen Mouse is extremely responsive to technique. Expect to suck at it for a little while until it all falls into place.

I found it best to play along to mp3's or with other Muso's and 'search' for the right tone by tweaking your technique on the fly. Much faster and an easy/fun way to develop that muscle memory.

Also builds up that "technique database" to draw on when the song calls for it or inspiration hits you.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Your Rob Allen Mouse is extremely responsive to technique. Expect to suck at it for a little while until it all falls into place.

Roger that!

I found it best to play along to mp3's or with other Muso's and 'search' for the right tone by tweaking your technique on the fly. Much faster and an easy/fun way to develop that muscle memory.

Also builds up that "technique database" to draw on when the song calls for it or inspiration hits you.

Yes, I thin you're right. Have been doing this and it helps with technique, and with a renewed appreciation of how many bass lines in styles outside of jazz aren't nearly as "simple" as many snobby jazzer types often suggest. That plus working standard melodies, walking, and soloing has been keeping me busy. In the last week or so even sitting around in front of the TV just running 8th notes in the right hand seems like a good idea, and I haven't done that since I was a teenager playing guitar.

 

[Don Kasper]

I admit I could easily be overthinking. I use all kinds of RH attacks on the DB, but there is a basic rest stroke that it's all built on. Just trying to find that basic central starting position on BG right now. It will come eventually!

One possible variable to consider is where, (and how differently), the instrument is placed while sitting, verus while standing (+ using a strap). My slab students almost all "play" standing up, using a strap, but prefer to sit during lessons... (I'm a bit "long-winded", apparently.)
I've recently insisted that they emulate their actual real-life performance practices (standing) during lessons, ESPECIALLY regarding the whole right-arm/hand/fingers geometry and mechanics. There is usually a significant difference in how the cutout forces the instrument to pull and land on the right hip while sitting (with the strings parallel to the floor) - this causes the right-arm/etc. to compensate, (usually by recoiling/retracting), which causes a new RH side geometry, one that usually magnifies the bending of the elbow and wrist, and more importantly, magnifies the angle of the uneven-length of the first 2 fingers of the right hand. Using a strap allows for the instrument to be placed more in front of the player, (as opposed to toward the side or on the right hip), while a simultaneous raising of the (strap) height, ALONG WITH a raising of the headstock, can minimize the difference in length between the first and second fingers, and allow for the LH to be more at shoulder level (NOT reaching down - sometimes below the beltline(!), like the Punks of the 70's/Grunges of the 90's, did. I hope they had good Health Insurance that paid for Chiropractic/Acupuncture treatments to address the LH Wrist issues that surely followed.)
Will your "performance" mode be sitting (strapless!) or standing (strapped!)? I understand that so far you've been in your gigmobile or on the couch, sitting.
Just my $0.03.
I hope the DB Mods don't pull the plug on this (mostly) BG discussion. THOSE guys are...Well, you know.
Mea Maxima Culpa...
Thanks.

 

[PaperbackRyder]

My 2c's: there is a balancing point when standing and strapped. Too high and the right wrist is bent causing numbness, too low and the left wrist is bent causing pain. Either one inhibits free and fluid movement. I have a friend who is an amazing and well credited player who wears his axe low enough for his right wrist to be near straight. He is 6 shorter than me but when I sit in he has to raise the strap.

I Usually find that with the neck plate around the navel area, above the belt line, is about right.
In this picture, the two fingers strike each note with equivalent (or at least controllable) force and tone. However, my right hand started getting numb during the second set, so I dropped the strap one notch.


Learned a lot about compentsating for finger lengths back in the eighties when driving straight 8's all night..

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Lots of great food for thought in the last two posts - thanks, gents. I have been practicing sitting with the right leg raised a bit and trying to find the range. My training from over 30 years ago in this area was in classical guitar, but that featured a pretty bent wrist and straight fingers. It works and gets a good sound, but my instincts tell me that this might not be a healthy long term solution - for me, anyway - for BG. At this point, I honestly don't even know if I still own a strap. I will correct this and do some experimenting, thanks.

When I played my way out of debt on BG in a society band from roughly 1994-2002, I was playing the jazz/coctail sets with free strokes at the end of the fretboard, and the pop/rock stuff a heavy pick and some palm muting. It sounded fine for what we were doing but is not what I'm after these days. In looking online for some help, I found some great info from Adam Nitti (like This lesson and This video) about floating thumb/movable anchor technique, and think my best bet is to go back to white belt status and rebuild from there. It's the long road, but I think it's also the high road. Time to buckle down and start breaking some rocks...

 

[gerry grable]

My 2c's: there is a balancing point when standing and strapped. Too high and the right wrist is bent causing numbness, too low and the left wrist is bent causing pain. Either one inhibits free and fluid movement. I have a friend who is an amazing and well credited player who wears his axe low enough for his right wrist to be near straight. He is 6 shorter than me but when I sit in he has to raise the strap.

I Usually find that with the neck plate around the navel area, above the belt line, is about right.
In this picture, the two fingers strike each note with equivalent (or at least controllable) force and tone. However, my right hand started getting numb during the second set, so I dropped the strap one notch.
View attachment 878890

Learned a lot about compentsating for finger lengths back in the eighties when driving straight 8's all night..

I've always played fender seated on a stool--always, to avoid the two above problems. I also didn't like the weight on my neck and the bass swinging around . BTW even though sitting I still use a wide leather strap. It keeps the bass from tetter-totering on my leg.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Hey Chris have you checked out DARIO DEIDDA? He really pulls some great jazz tones out of an electric bass.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Dario sounds great!

 

[Groove Doctor]

I told you the Mouse was a cruel but beautiful bass. It's SOOO dynamic/responsive to touch/expression it forces you to reexamine/relearn how to play.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Hey Chris have you checked out DARIO DEIDDA? He really pulls some great jazz tones out of an electric bass.

Dario playing one swayed me to buy an old Coronado when one came up for sale here in Oz. Superb necks.

Replacement Wooden bridge (which I'll try soon) adds to his tone.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I love my Kinal, a bit of a different take on a mouse. That being said I've spent the last 6 months involved in a unique electric build that is coming to an end and should have a very jazzy vibe.