Double Bass Lightness of touch (DB forum thread)

[bassmanbrent]

Have you seen this advice from this young monster? Like petting a cat, he says. I haven't been able to reproduce his results -- digging in always seems louder than petting the cat -- but he's also a much better player than I.

I have to experiment with this a little. I admit that I'm sceptical though. It seems to me that there's an optimum spot where one can get maximum volume without tension. Playing as lightly as possible (for me, anyhow) means turning up my amp, and that results in a less satisfying sound. Hmmm...

 

[lurk]

I have to experiment with this a little. I admit that I'm sceptical though. It seems to me that there's an optimum spot where one can get maximum volume without tension. Playing as lightly as possible (for me, anyhow) means turning up my amp, and that results in a less satisfying sound. Hmmm...

You don't want to play as lightly as possible, but you don't want to muscle the bass either. Check out Todd Coolman's interview with Peter Washington - my favorite at the moment, and hardly a wimpy, chops-first, showy, amp-dependant player. He gets into this topic at several points in some detail. It's episode 52 of the Cool Toddcast, which I listen to via Spotify, but you can find it anywhere you get podcasts.

 

[AGCurry]

Have you seen this advice from this young monster? Like petting a cat, he says. I haven't been able to reproduce his results -- digging in always seems louder than petting the cat -- but he's also a much better player than I. I suggested he try to prove this concept with a decibel meter, which he thought was a good idea, but I haven't seen this test conducted yet. I'm really having fun trying to get his great sound by playing really light, though. It's a very interesting exercise.

Well, yes and no.

Seasoned bassists who have developed counterproductive habits may benefit from this advice to "lighten up," but what Cole doesn't mention is that plucking velocity (not brute force) matters in the sound (attack) that we're trying to get. Students and novices may take this advice to mean "play wimpy." Whether playing light or hard, we have to "dominate" the string.

Something that good players (and really, anyone who does something physical) have in common is that they make it look easy. To me, the key is not so much lightening up as relaxing.

 

[bassically_eli]

Apparently, Christian McBride is not a fan of the “chicken wing” technique: . See 0:56-1:18.

I thought of the exact same video as soon as I read "ckicken wing," but I don't think everyone here is talking about exactly the same thing when they use that term. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what Christian was saying is that he sees people lifting their elbow away from their body in an extraneous motion; a motion that is in the wrong plane and does not contribute to sound production. I think others who use the term are likely just describing the use of arm weight, which I think virtually all bass teachers agree with.

Perhaps there is a third group of people though? Maybe a chicken wing motion for slap or something else resembling it where the strings are pull out from the fingerboard (as in perpendicular instead of parallel)?

Man Christian gets such a good sound. I like that he uses two fingers without turning them perpendicular to the strings.

 

[bassically_eli]

Have you seen this advice from this young monster? Like petting a cat, he says. I haven't been able to reproduce his results -- digging in always seems louder than petting the cat -- but he's also a much better player than I. I suggested he try to prove this concept with a decibel meter, which he thought was a good idea, but I haven't seen this test conducted yet. I'm really having fun trying to get his great sound by playing really light, though. It's a very interesting exercise.

I love Cole's playing and always appreciate his instructional vids, but like others, I'm skeptical about this one. I find the language a little confusing. Playing as "light as possible" sounds like "play pianissimo" to me. It also sounds like he's saying to never (or almost never) dig in, but I don't see how one is supposed to play forte fortissimo without digging in. Not that we need to play ff all the time.

I have to experiment with this a little. I admit that I'm sceptical though. It seems to me that there's an optimum spot where one can get maximum volume without tension. Playing as lightly as possible (for me, anyhow) means turning up my amp, and that results in a less satisfying sound. Hmmm...

I agree, and I think that is more or less what Christian McBride described in the other video.

One more thing to mention is that digging in more can also be about a tonal change (in my non-expert opinion anyway). In Cole's video, for example, I hear a lot more midrange when he digs in. The light touch actually sounds muffled by comparison. As for which carries better out into the room, that's gonna depend on a lot of variables.

 

[crd]

Something that good players (and really, anyone who does something physical) have in common is that they make it look easy.

I don't know about that, at least in the world of jazz. I watch my peers and favorite bass players and think f*** no wonder we all have back trouble all the time.

The only jazz bass players I know who age gracefully either fully embrace the amp (R.C.), quit for twenty years and do lots of yoga then come back (Henry Grimes) or play electric bass.

 

[BobDeRosa]

I don't know about that, at least in the world of jazz. I watch my peers and favorite bass players and think f*** no wonder we all have back trouble all the time.

The only jazz bass players I know who age gracefully either fully embrace the amp (R.C.), quit for twenty years and do lots of yoga then come back (Henry Grimes) or play electric bass.

Recent exception: Ron Carter (your RC?) recent had to cancel an entire European tour because of back problems.

I love Cole's playing and always appreciate his instructional vids, but like others, I'm skeptical about this one. I find the language a little confusing. Playing as "light as possible" sounds like "play pianissimo" to me. It also sounds like he's saying to never (or almost never) dig in, but I don't see how one is supposed to play forte fortissimo without digging in. Not that we need to play ff all the time.


I agree, and I think that is more or less what Christian McBride described in the other video.

One more thing to mention is that digging in more can also be about a tonal change (in my non-expert opinion anyway). In Cole's video, for example, I hear a lot more midrange when he digs in. The light touch actually sounds muffled by comparison. As for which carries better out into the room, that's gonna depend on a lot of variables.

Your comment about p vs. ff is right on the money. Cole's comment that I found most confusing (1:32-1:48) is that someone 20 feet away can hear the light playing but can't hear the "dug-in" playing. Unless he's referring to some cosmic acoustical phenomenon, I don't see how that would work.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Cole's comment that I found most confusing (1:32-1:48) is that someone 20 feet away can hear the light playing but can't hear the "dug-in" playing. Unless he's referring to some cosmic acoustical phenomenon, I don't see how that would work.

^^^ Physics is physics.

 

[BobDeRosa]

^^^ Physics is physics.

But is it physics?

 

[Don Kasper]

But is it physics?

Metaphysics, perhaps?
Srsly - What bizarre advice to suggest to beginning bassists. He may want to revisit (revise?) this topic in future YT content presentations.
IMFO, of course, and please DON'T tell me to "lighten up"!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

But is it physics?

I was agreeing with you.

 

[bassically_eli]

^^^ Physics is physics.

Physics is really just math, and math is basically philosophy, philosophy is just words, words are only sounds, and sound is music. So us musicians are the real scientists.

Oh wait, I just found my last paycheck. Pretty sure musicians are musicians and physicist are physicists after all. Carry on.

 

[crd]

Revisiting this years later. The issue still persists, and still working on it. It’s more situational now, in that it doesn’t happen as often and I catch it quicker. But still a work in progress.

The stakes are also higher now as I am dealing with the beginnings of some arthritis in my right index finger and there’s a looseness in the middle joint that rears its head when I overdo things. My hand doc put me on a daily low dose of Meloxicam, and that is working wonders in general. But there are still those moments when I dig too hard and feel that pinch and then have to back off.

One came on the last tune of a really nice set with Tamir Hendelman a couple of weeks ago, and was accompanied by this strange sort of cramping which locks the index finger (and sometimes the middle as well) down into a closed position. That part is a different thing, a forearm cramp, like the charley horse cramp in the calf that can lock the big toe up at night. The doc says that’s a hydration/electrolyte thing, and I think she’s right.

I really enjoy your videos and playing but when I see how you hold the bass I can't help but think you are keeping yourself from accessing some of your big back muscles with your pizz hand. I gave the Red Mitchell low stool cello stance a good faith attempt but could not find a way to play that way that didn't make me use the small muscles in the hand more than I'd like. Standing I barely move my right hand fingers. Instead my back moves my arms. It feels like I am just throwing the weight of my arms around rather than playing with my hands if that makes any sense. It also 100% mirrors how I use my back/arm weight when playing arco. I've heard classical players talking about "dropping weight" etc

I'm sure you have good reasons for doing things the way you do but thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@crd No worries - it’s funny, because I sit and play the way I do for exactly the reason that it allows me to use the core and back more rather than less! It has to do with the bass being stationary and unable to move away from the force applied to it by the body.

But I get why it might seem otherwise. The first time I watched JiuJitsu training, I could not wrap my head around what was going on in the guard position. To me, it always looked like the person who was more upright was in control. But when I started participating and got in someone’s guard who knew what they are doing, it all made sense instantly: the connection to the ground confers balance rather than creating a trap.

As always, different strokes.

 

[damonsmith]

quit for twenty years and do lots of yoga then come back

It is about 95% sure that it was his twin brother Leon who "came back" - but I don't think that disproves your theory at all!

 

[crd]

It is about 95% sure that it was his twin brother Leon who "came back" - but I don't think that disproves your theory at all!

Ha! Okay, I am sticking with that story from now on! Off topic but he played my bass in 2010 and sounded unbelievable on my rig. I think he was in town for Fred Anderson's funeral and came to hang and play Jim Baker/Brian Sandstrom/Steve Hunt/Mars Williams Monday weekly and absolutely killed it for an audience of three... You never know who's gonna show up.

 

[Jason Hollar]

On the Cole video … obviously a relaxed, fat, warm tone - something we can all strive for … but it presumes a few things:

- a very nice ( and loud ) responsive instrument
- an acoustically favorable environment ( plus a nice big mic )
- no competition from crowd noise, drummers with “custom” drum kits ( with toms like musical cannons - you know those guys ) and guitarists with fender twins - etc, etc.

Yes there’s a certain finesse we should all practice for musical zen, but there’s also a certain force required to drive that bus all night. At least in my world.

 

[damonsmith]

Ha! Okay, I am sticking with that story from now on! Off topic but he played my bass in 2010 and sounded unbelievable on my rig. I think he was in town for Fred Anderson's funeral and came to hang and play Jim Baker/Brian Sandstrom/Steve Hunt/Mars Williams Monday weekly and absolutely killed it for an audience of three... You never know who's gonna show up.

Well, at a certain point, the new guy had been playing bass for over 10 years and really made a contribution. It was pretty clearly he never went to Julliard and he was always more fluid on the violin, but he made a mark. Someday both legacies should be restored. Both matter, both are interesting!

 

[JBarz]

no competition from crowd noise, drummers with “custom” drum kits ( with toms like musical cannons - you know those guys ) and guitarists with fender twins - etc, etc.

I tried to apply my new light touch techniques on the 4 hour gig last night and it straight up didn’t work because of a Fender Twin in the mix. I think the guitarist took my higher than usual amp volume as an invitation to play louder. Ended up having to dig in just as much as usual for the same thud to whack ratio in my tone anyway, and now I’m nursing what feels like an angry micro fracture in my RH middle finger.

 

[flatback]

This subject is a fascinating one if you are an upright player in the modern era, because there are these two totally opposing ideas and most of us grew up embracing just one side of the equation: Big tone = pulling hard. It seems so natural to try and get the most sound out of your instrument to compete with the others in the band who are louder naturally. But virtuoso players who employ speed and lyricism and complicated rhythmic concepts understand the #1 principle of technique: all of these are attributes of effortless playing. And Effortless playing on the upright involves lightness of touch and the right kind of bass and set up to get there (something almost none of us have:luthier bias)

I studied with Charlie Haden, whose right hand stroked the strings so soft it was like they were a lover's nipples, I took master classes with Dave Holland whose daily exercises include lifting/recocking work to touch the string and then lift the fingers immediately so that once the string is engaged the fingers reset (effortlessly). This new masterclass of Geoff's with Marc Johnson is so clear about just how light his touch really is. Just look at his right hand fingers kissing the strings, which allow him to execute sensitive vibratos and dynamic rhythmic patterns and extensive pulloff/hammers. Marc says that when he was with Bill Evans he was playing solo stings tuned down a step, in case you wanted to know how that young virtuosity was achieved.
And then there is Cole with his 2 foot long fingers that have such massive fulcrum that he can blaze the strings with almost no effort. (but with low action and really getting his hand over to the side so that he is glancing in his attack)

For most of us we grew up playing SOOO much harder that it is almost impossible to conceive of playing that light. It just seems and feels wrong. Retraining involves a complete reexamination and reset of our hands (both hands) to counter years of bearing down too hard.

Most of us have been YELLING on our instruments since the beginning. SCREAMING every note, at the top of our lungs (volume/pull). But screaming is not nuance-full. And it sure aint fast or lyrical or rhythmic or musical, it's just yelling to be heard.

In reading over this thread it seems like most people just frickin play way too hard and are having a hard time believing it. How can you develop speed and sensitivity and accuracy and grace while screamingly tense and over bearing? The trade off of course is amplifying the bass in such a way that it will allow for the lighter touch. BUT and this is in MHO the big one, if you amplify for a light touch, you absolutely CANNOT over play the strings anymore less you blast out your band and freak yourself out. Super hard to do and most of us who grew up with this acoustic bias (you don't ever hear your sax player who arguably makes twice as much sound acoustically as you do saying , "Oh I am just going to play this gig acoustically because I don't need any stinkin extra amplification"...he is aimed straight out at the audience with his bell in a sexual embrace of the microphone head. Most of us think we have to yank on the goddamn stings to make them sing, but really we need to train ourselves out of that, and into a more nuanced lighter relationship with the vibrating string.
In my opinion, on my bass, listening to the music I listen to, admiring the players I do etc....