MDF is common in high-end audio speakers because of its material consistency - including speakers costing $10K and over. Plywood is almost never used due to its lack of consistency. FWIW.
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Line 6 Lowdown Studio 110 Combo
- Thread starter JazzyJames
- Start date
FWIW - High end stereo speakers aren't hauled around from gig to gig.
Read the warranty - this wouldn't be covered.
You won't find high end SR speakers made with MDF. Plywood can purchased consistent and voidfree. It just costs more. You can buy thinner voidfree plywood cheaper but then you need to brace it. Takes design and labor costs.
Read the warranty - this wouldn't be covered.
You won't find high end SR speakers made with MDF. Plywood can purchased consistent and voidfree. It just costs more. You can buy thinner voidfree plywood cheaper but then you need to brace it. Takes design and labor costs.
Also, I assume you are not saying that the type of wood doesn't change the sound of a cabinet right? Because there is magic in MDF my brother.
True.
The tradeoff for the stiffness of the material is it's weight (as already mentioned).
Like me.
Joe.
Hmmm - you didn't even remember it was MDF. Did you do a proper double blind test to compare the construction? I doubt it because you'd find no superior performance from MDF.
MDF is not going to win any competition over a properly constructed plywood cabinet. Sound or longevity.
I have no problem with MDF for home speakers that aren't hauled around. I have no problem with MDF for low costs amps - I think people ought to know what they're getting for their money.
MDF not for pro level gear. It doesn't hold up. See Winston's post describing how it falls apart in stores above.
Concider making a pro-level amplifier with real void free plywood. It will be lighter, and it will be what pro's are looking for.
True.
The tradeoff for the stiffness of the material is it's weight (as already mentioned).
Like me.
Joe.
I know! That is the deal.
You have decided I am a liar. I can't change that.
I did the Studio 110 over 2 years ago. Please give me that.
But again, yes we did double blind test. We had no less than 5 and up to 10 bass players here at Line 6 listen to all different iterations of the cabinet. All behind a sheet. Blind as a bat. Then we would change their positions or not and have them play again. I did it to myself as well. We picked the material based on sound.
Here is a real curious thing. For the LowDown 410 that goes with our new high powered heads I went with all plywood. I copied a design of a cabinet I have had for years and like better than any other 410 I have ever heard. Also, for a 410, it may get hauled around more so plywood is lighter and more sturdy. Well guess what? Guys aren't digging it. When they play the HD400 into the 410 against the LD400 Pro, both have the same eminence speakers, the pro guys like how the LD400 Pro sounds better. Go figure.
So again, if you think that I sat at a desk and said to an engineer, "what is cheaper?" "ok, then mdf it is" I can't change that but that is definitely not the case.
Also, I said, we had to go with plywood sides because the tops were cracking off in shipping. Not hiding anything here. And, fwiw, the returns for the entire LowDown line are very low and the returns for falling apart are basically zero. Never heard of this. Not sure what happened to the one Winston is describing. I would like to get a hold of them and get it back here.
When I was working at Sam Ash for a while, no line of products, including Behringer, had nearly as high a failure rate as Line 6. Our sales staff became conditioned to discourage customers from purchasing Line 6 amps because it was simply too much of a hassle to deal with the returns. One actually crapped out on me AS I was demoing it. One guitar combo was returned because the factory had failed to plug the speaker cable into the amplifier section, and opening the case to do so would have voided the warranty. That particular guitar amp had a sticker on the back that indicated it was audited by QC.
Ridiculous.
One customer returned his broken Spider III decided he wanted to try his replacement out in the store to make sure it worked before he drove it home. The amp stopped working within ten minutes out of the box. Disgruntled, he took his money and left. I called Line 6 that night before close to ask if there was any way to reset these pieces of junk or something to make them work again, and got this response:
"No, they're just broken at that point. Just bear with us, we're aware of numerous issues, and we're just trying to make every shipment better than the last."
Line 6 manufactures toys, not musical equipment.
Ridiculous.
One customer returned his broken Spider III decided he wanted to try his replacement out in the store to make sure it worked before he drove it home. The amp stopped working within ten minutes out of the box. Disgruntled, he took his money and left. I called Line 6 that night before close to ask if there was any way to reset these pieces of junk or something to make them work again, and got this response:
"No, they're just broken at that point. Just bear with us, we're aware of numerous issues, and we're just trying to make every shipment better than the last."
Line 6 manufactures toys, not musical equipment.
In your blind tests you found that users were identifying the MDF as having a superior sound? Or that it had no sound difference, so you went with the cheaper option? This I would believe. You could of course provide some measurements to back this up but I'm sure it's all proprietary.
On your 4x10 You copied a design?
Did you think of hiring a cabinet designer?
Did you add appropriate bracing?
You say a 4x10 would get hauled around more so you used plywood because it's lighter and sturdier.
The Plywood part is true. And it looks like people shouldn't haul around the 110. Or you don't think users of the 110 deserve the lighter sturdier solution.
Is your next move to make the 4x10 out of MDF and claim an improvement.
I own some Line 6 products. Not any of the amps. So far I've been happy with the Line-6 products I own and find the quality fine. They all do exactly what I want. Noise is low. Support has been great. These amps I never touched because I believed they didn't meet up to my expectations from Line 6. While the signal processing may be state of the art, the build quality and amp and speaker technology is years behind the curve. Thanks for your honesty.
Just out of curiosity, was that guitar gear or bass gear? And how long ago?
Thanks.
Joe.
Woops, didn't mean to open a can of worms.
I was talking about the LowDowns.
Considering how many guitar amps we sell, and it is a mile ahead of the number 2 competitor, you are going to see more overall returns but as I said, it is a very low percentage. I would think that if you were selling that many amps, you would encourage guys to sell more. I can't publish numbers, but trust me, in guitar amps, we are the guys with the target on our backs. But this is a thread about the Studio 110, those are solid.
Do you remember who from Line 6 told you that? Can you tell me more about what it did when it stopped working? Just curious.
Wow! Somebody needs a nap!
What happened to make you so bitter towards Line 6? Was it personal experience or hearsay?
FWIW, I've heard that there bottom of the line guitar stuff was pretty cheesy (from friends that bought the Spider series several years ago) but I have had zero problems with computer hardware/software products that I own and have heard only good about the bass stuff.
Joe.
80% of the failures were guitar, not bass. But, 90% of the sales were guitar, not bass. Additionally, not to harp too much on the MDF concept, but we had a lonely LD 110 that sat on the display rack never to be sold, most likely because the ports were absolutely packed with wood particles. It's probably still there. Sam Ash Columbus, OH.
Yes, we were selling a lot of amps, but when things get returned, salespeople lose their commission. That's why we didn't like to sell them. Instead, we encouraged customers to buy the Vox AD series amps, or the Hartke A series bass combos, which were leaps and bounds more reliable, but with fewer bells and whistles.
The Spider III failures: One moment you'd be happily playing, then there would be loud white noise lasting for roughly a second, the LCD screen would blink and then everything would shut down, never to power up again.
This was May through December, 2007.
I did not get the name of the person I spoke to on the phone about the reliability issues.
You are nailing it. You really do know what you are talking about. Thank you for helping me clarify. See below after =========
In your blind tests you found that users were identifying the MDF as having a superior sound?
======= Yes. I never talk of tone in superior/inferior. To me tone is art. The MDF had a fat, kinda, hunched down low mid warmth to it. The all plywood version had decent lows and a bit more of a clean sound, a bit more high mids. We also played each version against a drummer and guitar player to see where it sat on our sound stage and we did recordings. So when it was all said and done there was this cut we all like in the sound. It was never unanimous of course but the consensus is where we landed.
Or that it had no sound difference, so you went with the cheaper option? This I would believe.
========= There was major sound difference with all the combination we tried. Like if you were one of the guys we would have done this with, you would have heard the difference. You may have preferred something different than me, but you would have heard a marked difference.
You could of course provide some measurements to back this up but I'm sure it's all proprietary.
====== We did use LMS to do many many measurements. It isn't all that proprietary. I like where our cabinets landed, but I realize we did not reinvent the wheel. We did have all the competitors amps in to make sure we won sonically for sure. Also, think about it, if our only consideration was to make it cheap, we could have. The LD300 Pro is one of the more expensive 1x15 combos around. It has been a top seller from day one. Even though you pay a bit more, I believe people step up if the tone is there.
On your 4x10 You copied a design?
==== Yeah, it is a Horizon cab. Don't know if you guys ever heard of it but it was a budget brand built by the guys who do cables. A buddy brought it to the James Tyler booth when I was working for Jim. I built guitars and basses with him for 8 years. Anyhoo, my buddy let us use it for a NAMM show and it sounded great. I bought it from him on the spot. I have had guys offer me $1,000 cash for it. I said no way. We ordered another and got it in and it didn't sound like mine at all. I have had it ever since. When it came time to do the 4x10 we got all the top brands in and did a battery of tests and it kept coming back to my cabinet. Now, I said some pro guys aren't digging them but then there are pro guys who love them. So we measured and built it the same way and nailed it. So much so that I am not as worried about mine getting stolen.
Did you think of hiring a cabinet designer?
==== We have many guys working for us that came from a cabinet and speaker background. Like JBL for instance.
Did you add appropriate bracing?
===== Again, I didn't mean to imply that no one likes them. I love them. But yes, they are appropriately braced.
You say a 4x10 would get hauled around more so you used plywood because it's lighter and sturdier.
The Plywood part is true. And it looks like people shouldn't haul around the 110. Or you don't think users of the 110 deserve the lighter sturdier solution.
====== Oh, I was more relating that to the bigger combos. The big thing was I wanted to copy my cab. And right now the 410 only weighs 45lbs, not bad. The LD400 Pro with MDF weighs 90lbs all together.
Is your next move to make the 4x10 out of MDF and claim an improvement.
========== Thank you for that.
I own some Line 6 products. Not any of the amps. So far I've been happy with the Line-6 products I own and find the quality fine. They all do exactly what I want. Noise is low. Support has been great. These amps I never touched because I believed they didn't meet up to my expectations from Line 6. While the signal processing may be state of the art, the build quality and amp and speaker technology is years behind the curve. Thanks for your honesty.
======== Like I said, for LowDown, very low return rate for build and very low return rate period.
We worked as hard and long with speaker samples built to our specs over seas. For the 410 and 210 combo we went with eminence speakers. And on the big guys we are working with a high end class D high-fi company in Europe for the amp. The power supply is analog. Keeps the weight down and heat down.
I think we are stepping up. What about the Spider Valve? Went to Bogner to get an expert helping us with the tube amp side of it.
Wow! Somebody needs a nap!
What happened to make you so bitter towards Line 6? Was it personal experience or hearsay?
FWIW, I've heard that there bottom of the line guitar stuff was pretty cheesy (from friends that bought the Spider series several years ago) but I have had zero problems with computer hardware/software products that I own and have heard only good about the bass stuff.
Joe.
They were all fair questions. I don't think he was bitter, at least I wasn't feeling it.
If you are talking about the Spider 15, the $99 guy. They are super affordable and don't pretend to be anything but a fun and cheap way to rock out.
Thank you so much for the clarification. Most of what you said, I can't do anything about here I guess.
But since this is about the Studio 110. I thought I would answer your above statement. There are no ports on a Studio 110. Are you sure it was a Line 6? or maybe it was the LD150?
If it sat there lonely that is a bummer. The Studio 110 is the best selling 1x10 by a mile. Again, lost sales. Kinda a bummer if a past bad experience drives guys to not look at future products.
Oh well. Again, thank you.
They were all fair questions. I don't think he was bitter, at least I wasn't feeling it.
If you are talking about the Spider 15, the $99 guy. They are super affordable and don't pretend to be anything but a fun and cheap way to rock out.
Your a class act Rich.
I couldn't tell you what amp it was but it would be at least 4 years old and under $200. Also, I'm thinking it had a 10 in it. (He has since gotten rid of it and plays through a small Peavey all tube combo and an extension cab he built himself. Did a damned good job too.)
It seems like I remember the clean tone of the Spider being pretty decent but the distortion was hideous...but hey, no offense. Before he got rid of it he bought a (Rocktron?) Silver Dragon which to me was equally hideous but he liked. Different strokes I guess.
I heard the Spider Valve at a local shop. It sounded excellent.
Joe.
I like my Lowdown 110 because of its light weight and sound options. As a arthitic retiree taking up bass, it was a no-brainer when I bought it. The GK 110 I tried buzzed like a bumble bee. The salesman at GC admitted that they were havingquality isssues with those amps. That said, if I were looking for an amp to start out on nowand seing as the price is now $299, I'd give strong consideration to the Acoustic B100 and a hand truck. These came out about six months after I got my bass & amp.
Nice background on the low down lineup and thanks for explaining the R&R and testing. I have a Low Down Studio 110 and it works fine. Thought it buzzed sometimes but it was my lights on a rheostat instead. This is a good product if used as intended. Even keeps up with my bud's screeching Epiphone Les Paul on lead and our rhythm guitarist's Telecaster. I schlep it around to practice and it holds up fine. You do have to tweak the Drive knob a bit on startup to get the right volume. But it packs a lot into an inexpensive and portable pkg. I'm no expert but it works for me. Better than the weak Acoustic w/12 (drummer has that one now and is happy BTW) and heavy Peavey TKO w/15 it replaced. Thanks
Really hoping that richrenken can weigh in on this, but anybody's experience would be appreciated.
My line outs seem pretty noisy. Both XLR and 1/4 in. I kind of remember reading about that problem but I can't find it now. I was guessing/hoping/assuming that the line outs would be among the better features, since this is supposed to be a good amp to record with (and I was planning to do that in 2 days).
Anybody else have this issue? I bought it new from GC, so exchanging it should not be a problem.
--Bomb
My line outs seem pretty noisy. Both XLR and 1/4 in. I kind of remember reading about that problem but I can't find it now. I was guessing/hoping/assuming that the line outs would be among the better features, since this is supposed to be a good amp to record with (and I was planning to do that in 2 days).
Anybody else have this issue? I bought it new from GC, so exchanging it should not be a problem.
--Bomb
