line out or mic for gigs?

[JackANSI]

Two thoughts spring to mind...

1. I hope you don't say that to anyone you run sound for, lest you bum them out and ruin their set.

2. I hope you don't try to impose your will on bands by doing things like refusing to run them a mic when they want one or insisting that they turn down so low that they can't even hear their amps onstage (don't laugh...I've had a handful of idiots try to do that).

Whether someone's rig is special enough or not to mic up really isn't your call. If a bass player thinks his rig is special enough to where it should be mic'ed up instead of DI'd, there's usually good reason for it. Maybe bass doesn't take the "traditional" role, or maybe they're going for a sound that desn't work with a DI. Or maybe they just plain like the sound of their amp mic'ed into a PA. It's not something that you can apply a one-size-fits-all solution and make blanket statements about.

If its a house sound guy, it usually pays to listen to him. After all, he knows the room and its quirks better than you.

A sound guy should let you run a mic no matter what, but if he wants a direct you should give him that too.

If you run sound all the time, you know how frustrating it can be when a complete tool insists on something and you have to compromise a nice clean mix to accomodate. (Like a bassist refusing to DI on request and not being able to bring him far enough up in the mix because of a poor job of him setting up his rig to perform correctly).

There are more 'complete tools' and 'tone freaks' out there that have no idea which way is up outside of their basement than there are ones that have a clue.

Running without an amp? Not in this lifetime, bro! I don't care what you say...I think it sounds like crap to have to listen to the bass in monitors, and sorry...what I listen to onstage is every bit as important as anything coming out of FOH.

Yeah, I'd never run without an amp. You could have a killer preamp and the most expensive DI box currently available and it is going to sound like poop 9/10 times through monitors (compared to a bass amp thumping beside you).

Few places invest much in stage monitors. You never know what someone is going to drop on them, be it small hard objects or beer.

Only exception I guess would be IEMs, but why would you want to subject your band mates to horrible stage monitor tone?

 

[JimmyM]

If its a house sound guy, it usually pays to listen to him. After all, he knows the room and its quirks better than you.

A sound guy should let you run a mic no matter what, but if he wants a direct you should give him that too.

If you run sound all the time, you know how frustrating it can be when a complete tool insists on something and you have to compromise a nice clean mix to accomodate. (Like a bassist refusing to DI on request and not being able to bring him far enough up in the mix because of a poor job of him setting up his rig to perform correctly).

There are more 'complete tools' and 'tone freaks' out there that have no idea which way is up outside of their basement than there are ones that have a clue.

Agreed 100% with that last statement. I agree about 75% with the rest. You should absolutely listen to the soundman, especially if you're in an unfamiliar room and don't have a lot of experience. But the soundman should also listen to you and get a feel for what you're trying to do, and not just stick a DI on someone because they think it's the way to go.

As a for instance, I did a gig late last year where the soundman wanted to run a DI along with my mic because my upright was breaking up a little on the lowest notes (so what?). I said OK because I don't purposely go out of my way to make it difficult for soundmen. Then, in the middle of the first show, I discovered that he had my mic completely off. Yeah, it sounded fine, I guess, but it wasn't what I wanted. I bring a vintage Ampeg rig and a $350 mic, and that's not as good as the $50 DI he plugged in? My ass! So that doesn't fill me with warm fuzzies when that happens, and now I have to specify that I want the mic on as the predominant signal, and I warn them that I'll check during the show and I'll bypass the DI if the mic's off.

 

[TimmyP]

Two thoughts spring to mind...

High passing and fuzz...it's not the low end that's a problem with fuzz and distortion. It's the high end. Anything past 5 or 6k, especially if it's coming out of a tweeter, sounds harsh and annoying. So I'm not sure why you would high pass it. That will make the low end less woofy maybe, but it doesn't do much for making the high end less annoying, which is what's needed.

You are right of course - I meant to say low-pass. I never high pass bass - I want every bit of that last octave that can be had.

 

[dcr]

I pretty much always DI into the board. Depending on the rig, I'll go:

• Pre-EQ from the BMax-T (Jensen XMFR)
• In-line with my main out from the Demeter (Radial JDI with Jensen)
• Directly into the DI (my JDI) from either my bass or wireless unit

Why my obcession with the Jensen output? Simple -- I saw the DI out on a guy's keyboard amp get smoked from Phantom Power once. I'm not about to suffer the same consequence! Not to mention that it's an industry "standard" and sounds great too!

I figure that I'm loud enough out front that the audience can get enough ambience from my rig in 90% of my gigs. Never been super-picky about FOH sound. In my mind, there's really no controlling it and the sound guy will do what he wants any way. As long as I sound good on-stage and send the house a good signal, I figure I've done my job.

After all, I can't play standing out front or leaning over the sound guy's shoulder.

--edit-- I think this technique works pretty well. At least, scootron seems to think so (hi Lucky!). He showed up at our last gig and commented very positively about the bass sound out front. Even if the sound guy is a jerk



dcr

 

[TimmyP]

.....Then, in the middle of the first show, I discovered that he had my mic completely off. Yeah, it sounded fine, I guess, but it wasn't what I wanted. I bring a vintage Ampeg rig and a $350 mic, and that's not as good as the $50 DI he plugged in?

What you want and what works are not necessarily one and the same. Unless you listen to it out front, you have to trust that the guy is using what works best (much like BEs who insist that a mic be swapped out for an SM57 without even bothering to listen to it). And yes, I can certainly see that a Whirlwind IMP might give a better result than your mic and amp.

 

[Deacon_Blues]

I did something on my last gig that I will continue doing, at least on larger gigs with powerful PA support as that time: I plugged my bass into my Art Tube Pac preamp/compressor, using some minor compression. The unit features two outputs, so from there I sent the balanced signal to the PA, and the unbalanced one to my amp.

It was the best sound I've ever had on a gig. Even a guitarist friend in the audience complimented on it.


One more thing - always tell the soundguy how you want to sound. I asked the soundguy to turn down the treble frequencies a bit because I don't like that frequency range in my sound. He did that. I don't use a tweeter for that same reason and I don't want the sound in the PA to have too much of those frequencies either. The d'addario chromes flats are surprisingly bright...

 

[JimmyM]

What you want and what works are not necessarily one and the same. Unless you listen to it out front, you have to trust that the guy is using what works best (much like BEs who insist that a mic be swapped out for an SM57 without even bothering to listen to it). And yes, I can certainly see that a Whirlwind IMP might give a better result than your mic and amp.

You can't seriously mean that.

 

[JimmyM]

BTW, just to expand on what you said, Timmy, I DO go out and listen to the sound out in the FOH whenever possible. And I've yet to prefer the sound of a DI over my mic and amp, though I am going to get a Countryman DI so I can run a speaker DI for those JO soundmen who think they know more about getting my sound than I do and whine about the mic. Fortunately, there's not many of them, but it happens occasionally.

 

[Colonel_Claypoo]

[...]And I've yet to prefer the sound of a DI over my mic and amp[...].

why is that? could it be that you like the coloring of the cabs better then the DI signal.
maybe the midrange is more pronounced with a mic?

 

[Deacon_Blues]

What I like about a DI is that I don't color the sound of my bass to a larger extent. I've found that I'm the most pleased when the sound is as true to my bass' own sound as possible. For that same reason I don't like active basses and effects.

IOW, I want to hear an uncolored sound also from my cabs, which is why I think it's rather unnecessary to mic it. I've tried it, but the results weren't the best and it was tricky to find a good mic placement... I have full respect for people wanting to do it this way though. I'm just not one of them.

 

[JimmyM]

why is that? could it be that you like the coloring of the cabs better then the DI signal.
maybe the midrange is more pronounced with a mic?

Yeah, OK. I do like what the cab sound is a lot better than your typical DI. DI sounds good, but a mic on a good cab just sounds angrier and more sassifying to me.

Now since I bought a Sansamp VT pedal, I mind the DI a lot less than I used to, and if I'm on a fly date and they supply me with a crap cab, I'm way less insistent on a mic, but give me a cab I like and I'd rather have a 57 on it than a DI.

I have, however, started really digging the sound of a speaker DI through a tube amp. Sounds like a REDDI.

Honestly, I'll do whatever the gig needs, and if it looks like I'm going to grossly slow down the proceedings by requesting a mic, I don't worry about it. But it's my call, and not the soundman. The soundman is free to volunteer his opinions, but in the end, I make the call.

 

[Colonel_Claypoo]

Yeah, OK. I do like what the cab sound is a lot better than your typical DI. DI sounds good, but a mic on a good cab just sounds angrier and more sassifying to me.

Now since I bought a Sansamp VT pedal, I mind the DI a lot less than I used to, and if I'm on a fly date and they supply me with a crap cab, I'm way less insistent on a mic, but give me a cab I like and I'd rather have a 57 on it than a DI.

I have, however, started really digging the sound of a speaker DI through a tube amp. Sounds like a REDDI.

Honestly, I'll do whatever the gig needs, and if it looks like I'm going to grossly slow down the proceedings by requesting a mic, I don't worry about it. But it's my call, and not the soundman. The soundman is free to volunteer his opinions, but in the end, I make the call.

yeah, i see. good approach.
priority is to get the job done efficiently but it's nice to be able to decide how to get there

i'm currently liking the DI approach best but mostly because i'm going the minimalist route. however, i see good results by doing so.

 

[Brick Top]

To answer the original question....I run the sound for a 5 piece bar band....and even though the bass player uses his/her own rig...I like to DI the bass for a little extra bottom end when needed for certain songs....and a little control for me.

The musician still has the majority of the control...but the sound is better with both.

Cheers,
BT

 

[fourteenstrings]

I have run into so much flak from soundmen over bass tone that I'm very defensive now on the whole topic. Soundmen where I live believe they are the alpha and the omega of knowing how the bass tone *should* sound live. There's no negotiation possible, it is all DI (theirs) straight out of the axe. Frustratingly, none of them are musicians, they just seem to be geeks who like to play with big speakers, or DJ's who think they know everything. Locally, I have NEVER been "allowed" to mic my bass amp, and I have even had soundmen come up on stage and completely change the EQ on MY amp, or turn it way down. Mostly, their mentality is that bass guitar should be run direct into the PA, and that amps shouldn't even be allowed on stage. Kind of a control thing, I guess.

Now, I have run sound live for a long time myself, through some pretty big systems, and as a musician, I am well aware of the desire of the players on stage to convey their art to the audience in the way they intend. I always ASK the players how they prefer to be connected to the PA, and if I run into difficulty getting a useable tone in the mains (i.e., bassist insists on micing a folded horn, etc.) I have yet to encounter a musician who is offended when I politely suggest a compromise.

That said, my recommendation is to assume you will be forced to go direct, and bring your own gear for DI'ing. Whether it be a SansAmp, modeling unit, separate preamp, or whatever, try to get YOUR tone into a direct signal and then try as best you can to stand up for yourself and get the sound guy to use it. I don't know why bassists are the target so much, I've never seen a soundman try to tell a guitarist they have to go direct.

(FWIW, I have brought a bass mic to gigs with me for years "just in case". I just think there's no substitute for a speaker moving air as part of tone. )

 

[TimmyP]

Locally, I have NEVER been "allowed" to mic my bass amp, and I have even had soundmen come up on stage and completely change the EQ on MY amp, or turn it way down.

Most every bass rig I've encountered was so hot in the room in a certain frequency range that I had to either mix the entire band up to that hot spot, or adjust the bass rig in order to get rid of that hot spot. The former usually would have resulted in a mix that was too loud for the room, in which case the latter was necessary.

Unless you are listening from out in the room, you have no idea what havoc your rig may be wreaking.

 

[GregShadoan]

Two thoughts spring to mind...

1. I hope you don't say that to anyone you run sound for, lest you bum them out and ruin their set.

2. I hope you don't try to impose your will on bands by doing things like refusing to run them a mic when they want one or insisting that they turn down so low that they can't even hear their amps onstage (don't laugh...I've had a handful of idiots try to do that).

Whether someone's rig is special enough or not to mic up really isn't your call. If a bass player thinks his rig is special enough to where it should be mic'ed up instead of DI'd, there's usually good reason for it. Maybe bass doesn't take the "traditional" role, or maybe they're going for a sound that desn't work with a DI. Or maybe they just plain like the sound of their amp mic'ed into a PA. It's not something that you can apply a one-size-fits-all solution and make blanket statements about.

A couple other comments...

Running without an amp? Not in this lifetime, bro! I don't care what you say...I think it sounds like crap to have to listen to the bass in monitors, and sorry...what I listen to onstage is every bit as important as anything coming out of FOH.

High passing and fuzz...it's not the low end that's a problem with fuzz and distortion. It's the high end. Anything past 5 or 6k, especially if it's coming out of a tweeter, sounds harsh and annoying. So I'm not sure why you would high pass it. That will make the low end less woofy maybe, but it doesn't do much for making the high end less annoying, which is what's needed.

Well said, again I have to completly agree. EVERY bass player/bassist is a whole new world. If given the choice I will always do both. There are good reasons for that.
DI and a mic. Some bass guys know exaclty what they want, and I am always more than willing to accomidate them. It's their show.
Standing next to a bass amp for 38 years, AND doing sound, I have always had a special affinty to other bass players. Go out of my way to chit chat, complement them on their gear. irregardless of what it is, always tell them "yeah, thats really cool" and whatnot, so they feel at ease. After all I am going to go out there and have them at my mercy, best they feel good about the nut behind the wheel. But -sigh- alas, I guess I am an exception to the rule.
BTW, on mt list of mixing priorites, bass is like almost last. Sorry, but it's ture. Its almost always the eaiset channel(s) to get done.
I can mix that bass in (x) secounds ROFL.
Hell I can mix a whole rock band in 8 channels, in a big venue, and get good results.

 

[fokof]

).
Whether someone's rig is special enough or not to mic up really isn't your call.

WHAT??????

My god , those kind of statements makes my hair(or lack of it) stand up!
When you go see the dentist , do you impose the guy what type of drill he should use , because it's "YOUR" mouth he's dealin' with , and you spend your whole life workin on these tooths , whitening them every night with stripes and all etc...

If a bass player thinks his rig is special enough to where it should be mic'ed up instead of DI'd, there's usually good reason for it.

Yeah and there is usually a good reason why he's behind the desk and you're behind the bass ; 'cause everyone has a job to do , and you have to "let it go", and have a bit of trust in the the guy mixing your band.

The soundman is free to volunteer his opinions, but in the end, I make the call.

OMG :scowl:

The soundman "HAS" to have the last call , simply because he's mixing , your not.
I would NEVER say to a bass player , "you should really use that Jazz bass" when I'm mixing a band only because I know a bit about bass tone, never.
I would never argue on a chord change of a song I know to any musician when I'm mixing.
What was it again , "leave the cow to the cowbow........"

Are you mixing yourself your band from the stage?
You should , really.....



Please understand my point ; it's not about the mic/DI/pre/post stuff , it's about you , as a musician IMPOSING your point of view to the soundman. He should listen to you but in the end , he HAS to do what HE wants.

 

[JimmyM]

Wow fokof, you're shot out of a cannon today!

Here's the deal...you know what you're doing, and I know what I'm doing. But you don't necessarily know what I'm doing. Now once I explain what I want, you're free to pursue that goal any way you see fit, and you are in total control of everything that happens from the snake back to you. But if it doesn't sound like what I like, hey bro, sorry, but I'm pulling rank. That's just the way it is. If that bothers you, I suggest not taking the gig.

Almost all soundmen, despite my quirks, love me. I am easy to work with, I respect everyone on the crew, I always say please and thank you, and you'll love working with me as long as you don't fight what I and our band members are trying to accomplish. The only ones who don't like me are the ones who fight us. If they fight us, we'll call someone else next time. And if you're a house soundman, we'll put up with it if we have to, but then you only force me to pull out a VT pedal or an outboard EQ and give you what I want you to have regardless of what you want to do. And we won't be calling you for any side gigs, either.

 

[MNAirHead]

Missed Tip

JimmyM did teach me something that some of you may not have caught - it's not in the manual (or not well written)

I popped him a quick note - a Countryman can be used between a head and cabinet.. the major companies used to make attenuator boxes a while back.

NOTE - do not try this with just any old DI box.

 

[fourteenstrings]

So, for those of you who condone sound guys being able to completely dictate and control the tonality and overall sound of the bass, do you also then think it would be okay for the priest of the Sistine Chapel to paint over some of Michaelangelo's work because certain colors clash with the new upholstery on the pews? Is it okay for a book printer to re-write the Scarlet Letter because it looks neater to always have chapters end at the bottom of a page?

Obviously, there's a point where the tone or volume of any instrument could be unusable and distracting from the overall performance, and yes, I agree those situations need to be corrected. But many non-musician sound guys are so focused on the technological side of the show that the fact the musicians are there to create an artistic performance is of little consequence to them. I've run across several sound guys who clearly felt that musicians were a nuisance.