line out or mic for gigs?

[Illbay]

Do most venues mic up the bass amps or just do line out to the pa? I'm sure it depends on the sound guy, but what usually sounds best?

Based on my very slight experience running sound I'd have to say that the general preference is a line-out. It's bad enough just dealing with the vocal and drum mics. Adding that many more is a nightmare!

A TB member of my acquaintance just bought a "cheap" 3/4 scale DB for use in his new country band. He has a nice condenser mic for the purpose, and the hassle we had with just getting the mic into the house mix without feedback and other problems wore him out. He finally just went back to his P-bass for the evening.

Mics present too many uncontrolled variables.

 

[fokof]

Heh Jimmy, nice exchanging to you once more , on the same subject!

Now once I explain what I want, you're free to pursue that goal any way you see fit, and you are in total control of everything that happens from the snake back to you. But if it doesn't sound like what I like, hey bro, sorry, but I'm pulling rank. That's just the way it is. If that bothers you, I suggest not taking the gig.

Thanx for getting my point. Your statement in red is exactly what I mean. I would only add " from the mic/DI to the board".

It's just that I don't understand why you say that and then you say this ;

As a for instance, I did a gig late last year where the soundman wanted to run a DI along with my mic because my upright was breaking up a little on the lowest notes (so what?). I said OK because I don't purposely go out of my way to make it difficult for soundmen. Then, in the middle of the first show, I discovered that he had my mic completely off. Yeah, it sounded fine, I guess, but it wasn't what I wanted. I bring a vintage Ampeg rig and a $350 mic, and that's not as good as the $50 DI he plugged in? My ass! So that doesn't fill me with warm fuzzies when that happens, and now I have to specify that I want the mic on as the predominant signal, and I warn them that I'll check during the show and I'll bypass the DI if the mic's off.

 

[JackANSI]

If you don't listen to your sound guy, in the end, you're not going to sound as good as you could.

So that doesn't fill me with warm fuzzies when that happens, and now I have to specify that I want the mic on as the predominant signal, and I warn them that I'll check during the show and I'll bypass the DI if the mic's off.

To that rock-star demand I'd tell you: "Go ahead, I'll just keep leaning on the DI channel. Its your band thats going to sound like ****, take it up with them after the gig."

If you brought your SVT and think you can do it form the stage, I'd just use your mic'd signal, plug a speaker delay/phase alignment DSP into the insert, and phase out your volume. Your gig wouldn't be worth my time anymore anyway

Heck there are guitarist less picky than that...

 

[Handyman]

do you also then think it would be okay for the priest of the Sistine Chapel to paint over some of Michaelangelo's work because certain colors clash with the new upholstery on the pews? Is it okay for a book printer to re-write the Scarlet Letter because it looks neater to always have chapters end at the bottom of a page?

Bad analogies are like a bicycle for a fish.

 

[fourteenstrings]

Bad analogies are like a bicycle for a fish.

I agree completely, bicycles and fish don't mix at all. I always feel bad when their little fins get caught in the sprocket.



But getting back to the original topic, what is "best" (DI vs. mic) is clearly a matter of opinion and venue. The problem from the musician side is when there's a disagreement; in my experience, the musician usually must concede. Every band wants to sound their best. But the band is not playing to showcase the sound guy's talent, the sound guy is there to help them achieve a good mix of the sounds they want to convey. When the tech stuff unnecessarily overrides the artistic desires of the band, that's where I have a problem.

 

[JimmyM]

So, for those of you who condone sound guys being able to completely dictate and control the tonality and overall sound of the bass, do you also then think it would be okay for the priest of the Sistine Chapel to paint over some of Michaelangelo's work because certain colors clash with the new upholstery on the pews? Is it okay for a book printer to re-write the Scarlet Letter because it looks neater to always have chapters end at the bottom of a page?

Obviously, there's a point where the tone or volume of any instrument could be unusable and distracting from the overall performance, and yes, I agree those situations need to be corrected. But many non-musician sound guys are so focused on the technological side of the show that the fact the musicians are there to create an artistic performance is of little consequence to them. I've run across several sound guys who clearly felt that musicians were a nuisance.

Right on. I hardly compare my playing oldies with Bowzer to the Sistime Chapel, but I take what I do just as seriously.

 

[JimmyM]

Heh Jimmy, nice exchanging to you once more , on the same subject!

Thanx for getting my point. Your statement in red is exactly what I mean. I would only add " from the mic/DI to the board".

It's just that I don't understand why you say that and then you say this ;

The delivery system is my choice, not the soundman's. Sorry.

 

[Illbay]

So, for those of you who condone sound guys being able to completely dictate and control the tonality and overall sound of the bass,...

It's not about "the tonality and overall sound of the bass." It's about everything fitting together in the mix.

When I was a kid, I thought the bass should sound above all. Big surprise since I was a bassist. I figure the drummer feels the same way, and of course all the other guys are right to think that way.

Someone's gotta play traffic cop. If a sound-guy says to me "don't play with your fingers, use a pick because it sounds better," he can kiss my grisly ***. But if he says "once you have your tone setup, I'll take it from there as regards the volume and trim, etc." Because his job is to hear the overall sound and get the mix right.

The straw-man in the argument here is that we're talking about the quality of the sound. Typically, the sound-guy is worried about the relative QUANTITY, and he's the one nominated to do that, not the individual instrumentalist.

 

[Illbay]

The delivery system is my choice, not the soundman's. Sorry.

Sorry, you're just wrong on this.

 

[Handyman]

Sorry, you're just wrong on this.

If you're the one paying the soundman, it certainly is your call. At least assuming he intends on working for you again. Being the one shelling out the cash gives you the authority to dictate all manner of things.

 

[JimmyM]

To that rock-star demand I'd tell you: "Go ahead, I'll just keep leaning on the DI channel. Its your band thats going to sound like ****, take it up with them after the gig."

If you brought your SVT and think you can do it form the stage, I'd just use your mic'd signal, plug a speaker delay/phase alignment DSP into the insert, and phase out your volume. Your gig wouldn't be worth my time anymore anyway

Heck there are guitarist less picky than that...

Picky? What is picky about buying a nice mic and wanting to use it? It's still only one channel, and I'm not making anyone jump through hoops. And if you can't do your job to its best using a flat-response mic on an SVT speaker, you need to find another line of work. And if my band hires you and you do something to screw me on my gig, I can guarantee you two things...you will never get called back (and many of our gigs pay a soundman pretty well so you'd be cutting your own throat, not mine), and I will talk about it to other musicians I know.

I'll give you an example...my band works with a soundman we really like on a lot of our gigs. Now he loves a DI'd full-range bass, and I don't. He tried to talk me out of the mic when I first started using it, but I explained to him how that's not my tonal goal, and I don't like all that clean pristine stuff and I don't like anything past 5k. So he mixes me the way I like now, it sounds awesome in the FOH, and he gets a lot of repeat business from us.

Here's another example...we did a gig at House Of Blues last night, where we did a gig opening for the Pointer Sisters. I told the guys on the soundcrew that I put a Heil mic on my bass and I don't like DI's. Know what they said? "Do you need a stand?"

As a matter of fact, that's the response I get from 90% of the soundmen I work with. Most of them seem genuinely happy to try something they don't usually do. And the ones who aren't usually suck at running sound.

So hey, it's up to you...give us what we want and we'll give you repeat business when we can, or don't give us what we want and we'll badmouth you and never call you again.

 

[JimmyM]

If you're the one paying the soundman, it certainly is your call. At least assuming he intends on working for you again. Being the one shelling out the cash gives you the authority to dictate all manner of things.

Thank you. It's like my dad always told me about the Golden Rule...the one with the gold rules.

 

[JackANSI]

In that case I'd charge per mic on the next gigs, DI's are free

And I can see how an oldies band would sound better with a lo-fi sound. I would give it shot, but only if you knew what the heck you were doing on your amp.

But you also have to realize that not everyone is in an oldies band and digs lo-fi sound. So to say a mic works in every case would be untrue.

 

[JimmyM]

In that case I'd charge per mic on the next gigs, DI's are free

And I can see how an oldies band would sound better with a lo-fi sound. I would give it shot, but only if you knew what the heck you were doing on your amp.

But you also have to realize that not everyone is in an oldies band and digs lo-fi sound. So to say a mic works in every case would be untrue.

Now you're winning me over! Ya, had I been playing for the Pointer Sisters, maybe I'd have used the SWR rig.

BTW, I do know what the heck I'm doing on my amp, thank you. I go for a pretty flat signal with just a slight bump at 125. That IS a pretty important part of the equation that if you're going to mic an amp, you have to give the soundman a usable signal. And I do.

 

[JackANSI]

Wasn't implying you personally didn't know, but a sound guy won't know until he hears the first note. Assuming the worst is usually the best.

 

[fourteenstrings]

It's not about "the tonality and overall sound of the bass." It's about everything fitting together in the mix.

The straw-man in the argument here is that we're talking about the quality of the sound. Typically, the sound-guy is worried about the relative QUANTITY, and he's the one nominated to do that, not the individual instrumentalist.

The OP's original question was about using a mic vs a DI. The volume of either of those can be adjusted in a mix equally easily, so the real issue here is not volume, but the fact that there is a sonic difference between the two that can potentially have an effect on the player's intended tone that reaches the audience. (Tone alone CAN affect how an instrument sits in the mix as well, but that is usually a function of the player, bass, amp, or all three, not the mic.)

That said, many of the sound guys that expect the bass player to use a DI ARE trying to have a say in the tone. It is common belief among many recording and live sound engineers that bass amps introduce too much noise and muddiness (and some do). Most that I have run into like this think the ideal bass sound is ruler flat with no character.


I agree 100% that whoever is paying for sound has the final say. Sadly, club owners here frequently are such cheapskates that they require the DJ to also mix the house sound, and the DJ is usually just some guy off the street who knows how the CD player works and doesn't have a clue about live sound.

 

[JimmyM]

A TB member of my acquaintance just bought a "cheap" 3/4 scale DB for use in his new country band. He has a nice condenser mic for the purpose, and the hassle we had with just getting the mic into the house mix without feedback and other problems wore him out. He finally just went back to his P-bass for the evening.

Mics present too many uncontrolled variables.

Yes they do...on an upright. I love the sound of a mic'ed upright, but they do present problems, so I just use a pickup. But on a bass cab, it's no harder to get a good sound than with a DI.

 

[Illbay]

The OP's original question was about using a mic vs a DI.

But I wasn't answering the OP's original question. Face it: topics drift.

 

[Illbay]

Yes they do...on an upright. I love the sound of a mic'ed upright, but they do present problems, so I just use a pickup. But on a bass cab, it's no harder to get a good sound than with a DI.

I don't have a problem with mic vs. DI, except that the mic represents a potential feedback problem.

The more mics you have, the more potential feedback. It's just inevitable especially with all the mics pointing at each other, and at monitor speakers, etc.

If I were a sound-guy, and you said "look, I'm using a mic," I'd respond "okay, we'll try it, but if we can't control it you're gonna have to drop it and go DI."

I would want to accommodate you to the greatest extent possible, but if your choice means that there are constant problems resulting, then YOU'RE going to have to accommodate.

Everyone can and should work together, personal preferences aside.

 

[fokof]

Jimmy;
Doing a show is a team work. You , as a bass player , practice with a drummer , you create/lock a groove together , each has to put his own and have to let the space to other musician. That is true performance wise , arrangement wise , and sound wise too.
The soundman you're working with has a job to do. You as a bass player have a job to do , no one will come and tell you what amp to use , or you're not gonna tell your drummer what Skins to use. (hope not)

Any good soundman HAVE to listen to the sugestions of the band , and if the sugestions are not stoopid , he'll use them. It's a team work.
But in the end , YOU decide what bass you bring to the gig even if your drummer called you to bring the green one.
Same thing with the choice of microphone and or DI or whatever.
You bought a mic , you suggest it to soundman , but in the end it's him who has the "mute" Button under his finger.
That's the very important point in this discussion for me , It's part of the soundman's job to choose the tools he wants to do his job, with the helping cues of the band.
If I'd do your sound , I wouldn't use your mike. I tried those and I prefer another one for that job. So what then ?
You'd do a Diva crisis ?

I do a sound gig each summer , at an outside festival (the biggest worldwide) I have 15 minutes to do a soundcheck without the PA on.
Headphone soundcheck for the FOH , monitors check on stage only.
So I have presets for different instruments to start with to gain some time with their appropriate mics.(gain structure & EQ)
A trumpet player didn't want to use the mic I was working with.
I tried to explain to him exactly what I'm telling you now; first you are loosing your souncheck time arguing and second I'm not gonna tell you what note to play , so don't tell me what mic to use.
It's a very different situation from what you probably live at every gig but the point is the same......

I'm curious , how does your soundman deal with the phase problems with the DI and the mike on the same instrument?
Please PM me the answer.......