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live sound decibel limits

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Devo-lution

Jun 24, 2009
535
4
#1
First of all... I don't want this to become a political thread. There's a lot of bashing going on here in Flanders and my guess is that this won't be allowed on Talkbass. Therefore, please restrain from bashing in this thread :p.

I'm starting this topic as a gigging musician who wants to find out how the oncoming sound and decibel norms will influence their his gigs. I personally have no clue about decibel levels, so I wouldn't know if we'd run into problems in the near future. The norms will be introduced soon and from 2013 they'll be enforced which might result to fines for bands or venues.

The decibel limits:

Category 1 maximum soundlevel ≤ 85 dB(A) LAeq,15min
(small bars, ...)

Category 2 maximum soundlevel > 85dB(A) LAeq,15min and ≤95 dB(A) LAeq,15min
(clubs, ...)

Category 3 maximum soundlevel > 95dB(A) LAeq,15min and ≤ 100 dB(A) LAeq,60min
q,15min and ≤95 dB(A) LAeq,15min
(festivals, ...)

For category 2 and 3 the decibel level will be measured from where the PA is situated.

So, live sound experts... Is this also happening elsewhere in the world? What to expect? Will drummers and loud guitar players have to be locked in plexiglass cages (might be a good thing :p) or are those fears a bit exaggerated?

P.s. I hope I'm not breaking any rules on TB. If I am, mods, please close this topic.
 
#3
I would like to respond to your post but I honestly can't figure out exactly what it is you are saying :confused:
Something is getting lost in translation..

I understand the 85db*a* weighted but what does LAeq, 15min. mean??

Here in my area were there is actual enforcement of sound levels (done by proper authority....not the bar/venue mangement telling you your to loud)
they usually tell you where you can't go over XXdb(weight a/c).

For example, at one venue I work at which is outdoors, the area of concern for noise level is across the street from the actual venue.
So, I have to go take decibel readings standing on the corner while the band is playing.
At this location which is actually behind the band stage but across the street it can't be over 74db*a* weighted.
This is approx. 70' measured from behind the stage.
 
#4
I too don't understand. Also, why are you worried about bashing or breaking rules?

If a volume limit is enforced, there really isn't much you can do about it other than conform. It wouldn't affect me at all, I'd adjust accordingly until we were complaint and play on.
 
#5
Sorry about the hazy post. Was a bit in a hurry when typing.

worry: In our social media there's lots of folks bashing the politicians that brought up these limits. The music sector isn't exactly happy and even the larger stages and organisers protest as much as possible. I have seen topics being closed before where people were bashing politicians, so I did this just to be safe :p.

My guess is that those minutes mean that the amount of decibel will be measured on average over a time of for example 15 minutes. I also heard that the silences between songs will be taken into the average.

They aren't enforced yet but will be soon. These are sound level limits that will be introduced in all of Flanders (Northern part of Belgium). Measuring will be done from where the PA is situated.

Main concerns of local musicians are... Is it actually possible to keep a live band under an average of 85 decibel over measured over 15 minutes in a small club? Especially rock-, metal- and dance/techno acts/stages are afraid they'll lose a lot of appeal.

My guess is that those minutes mean that the amount of decibel will be measured on average over a time of for example 15 minutes. I also heard that the silences between songs will be taken into the average.
 
#6
Devo-lution said:
They aren't enforced yet but will be soon. These are sound level limits that will be introduced in all of Flanders (Northern part of Belgium). Measuring will be done from where the PA is situated.
Click to expand...

It's a bit clearer now!
The question that still needs to be answered is how far away from the PA will this measurement be taken?
Is it going to be taken 2',10',20' (or meters in your case!).

The duration of time IMO is not that big of a deal, they will want you under whatever limit they set for the entire night regardless.
So if they say 85dba, it will be for the entire night....not just the 15 minutes they take a measurement.

Stage volume will be the biggest problem.
Some bands I work with can play quiet rooms with no problem. The drummers know to use lighter sticks and not hit as hard, the guitarists/bassists know that there volume knobs turn both right & left!.
Some bands however just will never get it...
I have some bands that will have a stage volume of 109dba measured at 20' from the stage....without the FOH PA system even on!.
 
#7
Measuring will be done from where the soundmen and the mixing board are situated.

I guess a lot of bands over here 'll be into trouble then :p. Most local rockbands (including my post punk band) play on levels that are, at least to me, unbearable without ear prlugs. This is especially apparent in the small bar gigs (40-60% of the stages over here are smaller bars). My guess is that this is a change that'll be felt.
 
#9
we run max 85 db at my church during worship, is a medium size room with ><200 people , mixer located 60f away from speakers, with proper EQ and an engineer who knows how to mix and musicians who have good tone 85db at a club should be enough too.
 
#10
Sounds like one could get away with just about anything, with some clever gear placement. Most similar ordinances specify some point such as the sidewalk outside, street, etc. Some clubs even have their own installed SPL meters that turn on a light to alert bands that they're exceeding the limit.
 
#12
OSHA(Occupational Safety and Health Administration) already has hearing protection rules for the workplace. A bar or club is a workplace. Decibel police if you will.

Lemmy has two words for them and they aren't nice ones.
 
#13
Honestly, even heavy/immwersive music would be plenty saturating at lower volumes..
I think its crappy that live music has to be painful.. It all sounds poopty that loud anyway


If people can't smoke in bars because its unfair to musicians and employees, how are damaging sounds levels different
 
#14
For the most part, my band isn't loud, and we always are concerned that our (older) audiences aren't offended too much by volume levels. But we're not quiet, and I've heard bands playing at lower levels than us and it just plain sucks unless it's jazz or mellow music. If I went to AC/DC and they had a volume limit like that, I would demand my money back.

I believe in people's rights to make their own decisions and they can accept the consequences. I think there's enough government interference in our fun without setting unrealistic volume levels for rock/club shows. Now if it's in a public place where people didn't ask to be subjected to it, I'd say OK, enforce it. But in a club where that's what everyone wants, I say still try to be reasonable about it, but if it gets a little loud, big deal. People who don't like it can leave. I went to see Dave Matthews Band in an amphitheater in Tampa a couple years ago, and the volume was so quiet that we had to leave because we could barely hear. Sorry, I want to hear it, and I'll worry about my own ears, thank you.
 

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