Live sound reinforcment with a single condenser mic?

[WashburnAB95]

So I run music at Church. We have the ability to run everything through the board except drums. We also have a very big group and play in a very confined corner. The Building is rectangular. The room has decent but not lively acoustics. There is a low ceiling. We will be playing at most to 200-250 people.

My plan would be to stack the group so that the quietest parts would be in the front and the loudest parts would be in the back.

I think I did okay with the sound tonight.... however we had a rehearsal yesterday in a living room. Everybody self balanced acoustically we had drums guitar piano and bass.AND we still could hear the vocalist. Something happens musically when everyone self balances. The musicality increases. I think we sounded way better there than we did for service.

So I think I can simplify our setup, save space, make recording possible very easily, and I think we can have better live sound.

Am I Crazy?

 

[WayneP]

Probably not, but I'm lost. Are you asking us if we think your living room arrangement would work in the church building, or letting us know that rehearsals at home can be great if everyone keeps their levels under control? Your thread title mentioned a mic, but I guess it was window dressing because nothing in your post related to a mic... ?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


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[Geri O]

If you can make it work, fine.

At some point, the microphone that's hearing the stage will also hear the artifacts of the PA arriving on the stage, if the PA gets loud enough. If you can manage that, so be it.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Try hanging a stereo mic about 3 feet over the kit. It's a low budget solution but better than nothing.

 

[WashburnAB95]

How do you do sound reinforcement for very large groups like orchestras? For a fact I know that often you will only use 1 or 2 mics to mic a whole choir.

The plan is to use the condenser mic to make sure the choir can be heard. As for the band... most of their volume will come acoustically. We can probably play loud enough to carry the room. The condenser would pick up the voices and just some of the band through mic bleed.

This Sunday we had 3 vocalists (we are promoting it heavily though so we are hoping for a lot more vocalists), guitar player, bass player, and piano player. We all have to setup in an area that is about 5 feet by about 20 feet. The baby grand piano and drums take up most of our space.

My plan is to maybe get to the point where maybe we have NO mic stands AND no music stands. It should break down all the barriers between the congregation and the choir.

Now I understand that our total volume will always have an upper limit because of mic feed back. That being said is there any chance at moderate volume levels to get good sound this way?

 

[WayneP]

The plan is to use the condenser mic to make sure the choir can be heard.
The condenser would pick up the voices and just some of the band through mic bleed.

That will only happen if the choir is very loud and the band is very quiet, or the choir is a considerable distance from the band. It’s extremely difficult to mic a choir with condenser mics on a stage with a live band. Condenser mics are omnidirectional and as such pick up everything.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
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[Zooberwerx]

That will only happen if the choir is very loud and the band is very quiet, or the choir is a considerable distance from the band. It’s extremely difficult to mic a choir with condenser mics on a stage with a live band. Condenser mics are omnidirectional and as such pick up everything.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
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My Basses
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That's the truth and one my worst nightmares. As a courtesy, I allowed a guest bluegrass quartet to use our PA for a short 45 minute set. They showed up with a single condenser mic which was centered amongst them. What made matters worse is that we gigging from a trailer-based porta-stage: low ceiling, lots of reflective surfaces resulting in feedback headaches for the duration. When I finally did get it dialed in, we were picking up the compressor noise from a beer truck parked some 50 feet away.

Riis

 

[Geri O]

How do you do sound reinforcement for very large groups like orchestras? For a fact I know that often you will only use 1 or 2 mics to mic a whole choir.

Sorry, that statement is entirely too general.

I've been FOH guy for the MS Symphony Orchestra, the University of Southern MS Symphony Orchestra, and the Tupelo Symphony Orchestra (when they actually assemble to do a show) for over 13 years. There's a lot of factors that determine how many mics I use on a orchestra and a choir.

Stick to trying to figure out the micing for the situation you originally posted about. That's not a good point to use as you make yours.

 

[walterw]

There's a lot of factors that determine how many mics I use on a orchestra and a choir.

c'mon man, don't be coy!

what's a typical number of mics you would use? where would you arrange them? (never done anything remotely like that, so genuinely curious)

+1 to the "single condenser" thing being mostly fantasy; it would work if the entire group of musicians was in another room from the PA, otherwise not so much, since the mic would pick up the PA, any monitors and probably the audience as loud as it would the various musos trying to play into it.

i'm speaking from a little bit of experience with both trying to mix and trying to play into one LDC, bluegrassy stuff in clubs (me on hack round-neck dobro and hack open-back banjo); in both situations it was impossible to get any low end richness into anything, because unless the lows were cut off way hard the thing would just take off into low end room howl, and getting the mic up loud enough to hear the players who weren't directly hogging the mic meant hearing the audience themselves coming back through the speakers.

 

[Geri O]

c'mon man, don't be coy! as if there's any other way...

what's a typical number of mics you would use? where would you arrange them? (never done anything remotely like that, so genuinely curious)

+1 to the "single condenser" thing being mostly fantasy; it would work if the entire group of musicians was in another room from the PA, otherwise not so much, since the mic would pick up the PA and any monitors as loud as it would the various musos trying to play into it.

I'm at 42 channels of microphones at the moment.

Our present mic set-up is a DPA 4099 clip-on mic for each individual string instrument, then a good condenser mic (presently the Crown CM700 on pairs of instruments...Woowinds, brass, horns, percussion, etc), but that mic has been discontinued, so we are replacing them in pairs as needed with the Audix ADX-51s. Similar to the CM700 in characteristics and response. RE-20 on tuba and concert bass drum. I place mics as I see the instruments being heard by the audience which is pretty basic and self-explanatory (except for French Horn players, who questioned why I didn't mic the bell of that horn. My reason is that the audience hears the horns from the front, not from behind them where the bell is aimed.

In spite of my previous post, I'm not a big fan of a lot of mics on an orchestra, but when you are aiming to cover up to 10,000 people, the PA will, believe it nor not, be a-rockin' even with an orchestra mix. It's about coverage, not volume. But the dynamics of a live orchestra are quite impressive, so the PA gets pushed. Close-mic'ing with an orchestra is a necessary evil to get around gain before feedback issues (and what the OP will probably run into eventually). But the bigger issue with all the mics is that the more mics used, the more of the dynamics of the orchestra fall in my hands. It's the conductor's job to direct the dynamics of the orchestra and it's my job to find a happy medium where the mics can sit at a nominal level and the conductor's dynamics can come through. Some days it's better than others, depends on the program and the environment.

 

[WashburnAB95]

Thank you guys I have learned a lot in this thread already. You guys have given me some things to think about. I do have a couple questions if you could be so kind

First could you build an enclosure around a condenser mic to make it more directional and cut out some of the interference from the side?

Second... how about a highly direction mic? Maybe a shot gun mic of some kind? Could they be useful in this application?

 

[WayneP]

I don’t know about the enclosure thing. Seems to me that any sound entering it could end up doing weird things.

Re the directional mic, I’ve used that too good effect. Excellent in fact. I used to do the sound for the productions at the private school my kids attended, where groups of timid kindergarteners and first graders recited memorized lines. I tried at least 3-4 different types of mics, and believe it or not I got the best results with common Shure 57 or 58 mics.

All you need to do is high-pass them at around 250 Hz, and low pass at ~2 kHz. That leaves nothing but the vital midrange frequencies, and totally eliminates any potential feedback below the high pass and above the low pass right off the bat. Then you can gently push the gain up and notch out 2-3 ringing frequencies. At this point you can push the mic level ridiculously high without any feedback (assuming the speakers are behind the mics). The moms and dads could hear their little darlings, and everyone was happy. Position the mic high on a boom stand, angling down towards the vocalists.

Most digital consoles these days can accomplish all this. However, if you have an analog mixer I’d suggest getting a vintage Yamaha YDP2006 digital parametric EQ and inserting it across the mic channel in question. Ideal for this application. It has built-in high and low pass filters, as well as multiple notch filters. Typically under $200 on ebay.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
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[morgansterne]

My plan is to maybe get to the point where maybe we have NO mic stands AND no music stands. It should break down all the barriers between the congregation and the choir.

If you're planning to hang mics from the ceiling for the choir, they'll pick up more of the rest of the band and less of the choir I bet. That's assuming the mics end up above the singers. All the instruments are likely to be projecting sound in every direction, but the singers will be projecting mostly right in front of them.

 

[Munjibunga]

Thank you guys I have learned a lot in this thread already. You guys have given me some things to think about. I do have a couple questions if you could be so kind

First could you build an enclosure around a condenser mic to make it more directional and cut out some of the interference from the side?

Second... how about a highly direction mic? Maybe a shot gun mic of some kind? Could they be useful in this application?

The enclosure is a bad idea - potential source of feedback. If you want directionality, get a more directional mic. Supercardioids have good off-axis rejection. There are also mics with variable patterns available, so you could adjust them to reject sound from the sides, but still have a wide enough pattern to pick up all the musicians. Rode makes a variety of these, and they typically don't break the bank. A shotgun mic would most likely have too focused a pattern to cover a choir.

 

[Rudreax]

That will only happen if the choir is very loud and the band is very quiet, or the choir is a considerable distance from the band. It’s extremely difficult to mic a choir with condenser mics on a stage with a live band. Condenser mics are omnidirectional and as such pick up everything.

Condenser mics are not all omnidirectional. Some are, most are not. They might seem that way because they're more sensitive than dynamic mics, like the SM 57/58.

All you need to do is high-pass them at around 250 Hz, and low pass at ~2 kHz. That leaves nothing but the vital midrange frequencies, and totally eliminates any potential feedback below the high pass and above the low pass right off the bat.

It's true that will help remove problem frequencies. It will also take out all the "oomph" and "sparkle" of the sound and not sound very good if you have to push it.

What are you actual micing options? As in, what mics do you have? Most other mics you'd find will be cardioid, which are directional by definition.

 

[walterw]

ll you need to do is high-pass them at around 250 Hz, and low pass at ~2 kHz. That leaves nothing but the vital midrange frequencies, and totally eliminates any potential feedback below the high pass and above the low pass right off the bat.

sure, but the tradeoff is it sounds like an announcement mic at a high school football game.

OK for talking but that's about it.

 

[WayneP]

Trust me, it’s about the best way to get any volume for a choir to get it heard on a stage where you have live instruments. No one in the audience cares about the sound quality of a choir they can’t hear because turning the mic up only gets feedback. If you guys have a better method that you’ve actually and successfully used, please help us out.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
Pedulla Club #45

 

[walterw]

Trust me, it’s about the best way to get any volume for a choir to get it heard on a stage where you have live instruments.

so like a choir with a band? apart from actual solo singers with their own (close) mics?

i guess that makes sense, if the choir is more sonically "narrow" it might sit in the mix better anyway.