Live Venue ASCAP/BMI licensing

[nomaj]

Venue came to us. Either way, knowing how this works isn't bad.

Regardless of who pays, hopefully it shouldn't be much.

 

[arbiterusa]

we were to license the songs we played not covered by ASCAP/BMI and it appears we failed to do that.

If this was part of a written contract for the gig and you failed to perform, well, break out a checkbook.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

I'm starting to think it's a shakedown. I found SESACs search and can't find anything we played on it.

I'm not certain, yet, but I think we might be in the clear.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

If this was part of a written contract for the gig and you failed to perform, well, break out a checkbook.

I'm ready to do that, I was just hoping to go into this and future issues with an inkling of a clue.

 

[bfields]

Mainly just out of curiosity, I tried looking up which organizations would cover the songs on a couple of my bands' setlists.

It was difficult and I'm not sure I got the right answers. There are multiple databases online, and the information in them is kinda sparse and not always easy to interpret.

My conclusion was that a venue owner with any sense is going to just pay up to all of them, rather than trusting that random musicians doing this kind of search are going to get the right answer.

 

[51PRI]

Sidenote: My cousin's band works in the St. Louis/Central Illinois area and he says that they have lost bookings recently at venues where they had previously been playing regularly because the venues no longer want to pay ASCAP and BMI.

Our contract stated we were to cover songs outside of BMI and ASCAP, and now SISAC (an entity I was unaware of) is looking to collect....

That's messed up.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

Mainly just out of curiosity, I tried looking up which organizations would cover the songs on a couple of my bands' setlists.

It was difficult and I'm not sure I got the right answers. There are multiple databases online, and the information in them is kinda sparse and not always easy to interpret.

My conclusion was that a venue owner with any sense is going to just pay up to all of them, rather than trusting that random musicians doing this kind of search are going to get the right answer.

ASCAP had pretty much all the songs I was looking for. BMI had a handful, and so far SESAC is a big goose egg.

You are right, their searches are garbage, which is why I'm not yet certain I have this dialed.

 

[bound'n'blocked]

I'm digging up this thread because my band is having issues tied to this. I'm trying to determine what songs are under each agency's blanket and I can't.

Am I misunderstanding how this works? Is there overlap? Is there a way to search a song for who enforces the license? Help

I work in radio. Back about 16 years ago, I had to obtain licensing information for every song in our automation system. About 2500 songs. I literally searched every title on the BMI, ASCAP and SESAC sites online. Any song I couldn't find information on was stricken from our playlist. I was able to get the info for all but probably 20-25 songs. The info is out there, it just takes some digging. Try the three licensing sites to see if you can find it. Some I had to search by song title, some by artist. I was looking for the songwriter in every case.

BnB

 

[bound'n'blocked]

ASCAP had pretty much all the songs I was looking for. BMI had a handful, and so far SESAC is a big goose egg.

You are right, their searches are garbage, which is why I'm not yet certain I have this dialed.

Just saw this after I posted. If any of your songs are country songs from the 50s-90s or maybe later and you couldnt find the info, let me know the titles. We dont use that old system anymore, but I still have the database.

BnB

 

[cheapbasslovin]

Just saw this after I posted. If any of your songs are country songs from the 50s-90s or maybe later and you couldnt find the info, let me know the titles. We dont use that old system anymore, but I still have the database.

BnB

I've figured out how to search the sites, and it looks like all our tracks are under ASCAP or BMI. None from that set are under SESAC, anyway.

I can't say how much I appreciate the help, though. Thank you.

 

[SoCal80s]

Venue came to us. Either way, knowing how this works isn't bad.

Generally, it is the venue's responsibility to obtain a license. I've never even heard of a Performing Rights Society (PRS) licensing a band directly instead of the venues. If you had an agreement with them to cover some licensing, then you may have liability to the venue through that agreement if SESAC asks for payment, but only for that evening, if you performed SESAC songs that evening. I imagine that SESAC contacted the venue because SESAC heard about performances at the venue and then went looking to hook the venue for a licensing agreement. PRS's don't usually check to see if any of their songs were actually performed, they just send out a letter saying "you better get a license from us because someone someday will play one of our songs." Don't let the venue try to hook you for an entire licensing contract. If they insist that you owe them something, and you did agree to it, then I would tell the venue you will pay a fair portion of a licensing fee that would cover that one night, if you did perform any SESAC songs, and if they actually get a licensing agreement from SESAC that covers that night. Then work that out with them, always asking yourself how badly you want to perform at this place again. SESAC will not sue them without first telling them what songs were performed in violation and when, so if they claim SESAC is suing them, ask them to show you SESAC's letter with the names of the songs and the dates.

I would suggest not making this type of agreement in the future. If the venue is too cheap to pay for a license then they will do other things to you that cheapskates do.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

Generally, it is the venue's responsibility to obtain a license. I've never even heard of a Performing Rights Society (PRS) licensing a band directly instead of the venues. If you had an agreement with them to cover some licensing, then you may have liability to the venue through that agreement if SESAC asks for payment, but only for that evening, if you performed SESAC songs that evening. I imagine that SESAC contacted the venue because SESAC heard about performances at the venue and then went looking to hook the venue for a licensing agreement. PRS's don't usually check to see if any of their songs were actually performed, they just send out a letter saying "you better get a license from us because someone someday will play one of our songs." Don't let the venue try to hook you for an entire licensing contract. If they insist that you owe them something, and you did agree to it, then I would tell the venue you will pay a fair portion of a licensing fee that would cover that one night, if you did perform any SESAC songs, and if they actually get a licensing agreement from SESAC that covers that night. Then work that out with them, always asking yourself how badly you want to perform at this place again. SESAC will not sue them without first telling them what songs were performed in violation and when, so if they claim SESAC is suing them, ask them to show you SESAC's letter with the names of the songs and the dates.

I would suggest not making this type of agreement in the future. If the venue is too cheap to pay for a license then they will do other things to you that cheapskates do.

It was the city parks and rec department. It's all good, though. SESAC did pretty much what you described; heard a tribute was playing and harassed the city, who in turn harassed us. It's coming to nothing, but in the future I will definitely be clarifying those terms before sending in the contract.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

For those that are in this position in the future (either because you're putting on your own show or an odd contract), these search queries should help you consolidate your catalog.

BMI:
Invalid Link Removed

ASCAP:
Invalid Link Removed

SESAC:
Welcome to SESAC

 

[74hc]

I've figured out how to search the sites, and it looks like all our tracks are under ASCAP or BMI. None from that set are under SESAC, anyway.

I can't say how much I appreciate the help, though. Thank you.

That would make sense because SESAC is heavily favored by Christian music songwriters. IIRC, they got there start representing such songwriters.

We have a federal copyright exemption for performance licenses, but SESAC wants that part of the copyright law removed. We still have to pay for publishing royalties which we do.

However, the publishing companies that collect the royalties from us, always try to restrict usage beyond fair use.

This part of the industry is convoluted, and it's designed that way. The goal is to get everyone to pay blanket royalty fees, rather than ala-cart.

What makes paying royalties on the gospel music we do, is about half of it is copied from public domain songs. Multiple songwriters copy the same public domain song, make some minor modifications, nothing really original, and claim copyrights.

I even had a song written from Beethoven, that some songwriter is claiming copyright on. He even put LvB as one of the composers on the score. Yet, SESAC is claiming copyright. Last time I looked, LvB has been dead for several centuries. They must think he's reborn!

 

[cheapbasslovin]

I even had a song written from Beethoven, that some songwriter is claiming copyright on. He even put LvB as one of the composers on the score. Yet, SESAC is claiming copyright. Last time I looked, LvB has been dead for several centuries. They must think he's reborn!

That's both amusing and frustrating as hell.