LM2 vs. NeoPak

[KJung]

i look forward to trying a neo-pak. I'm not a member of the markbass mob or a genz-goon. I just like an amp that sounds good.

+1.... I pretty much end up trying out everything under 20 pounds sooner or later All these small amps have some limitations (i.e., the lack of 2ohm operation with many, lower wattage than some would like into 4ohms with others, lack of expected headroom given published wattage with others, a lack of punch and clarity with others, etc., etc.). So far, the MB stuff is as close as I've gotten to 'full sized sound' in a very small box (which is why the feeding frenzy on people buying them). However, the amp isn't perfect (some DI issues, etc.).

I REALLY am looking forward to mid 2008 when the next generation of some of this stuff arrives. All this stuff is about 90% there IMO to totally replace large, heavy amps for a vast majority of bassists IMO.

It's a good time to be a gear head! I am even getting ready to sell my beloved Walter Woods in a while. Things have come along so far that IMO the Walter is no longer the 'king of the hill' in small, powerful amps.

 

[CElton]

I'm surprised that no one yet has pointed out that the difference between 350 watts and 500 watts, if comparing these two amps at a 4 ohm load with a single driver cabinet, would not be that audible in a real world environment. You wouldn't even have a 3 dB difference in maximum SPL, which would require the LMII to produce twice as many watts as the Neo-Pak, or 700 watts.

When gigging the head, the Neo-Pak has the headroom available to largely negate the rated power difference at 4 ohms. Plus it has a well-designed limiter which allows the player to hit it hard on transients safely. AFAIK, the LMII does not have a limiter, so if you crank it up for max power, it will run out of headroom and distort.

I don't have any scientific data to back this up, but I disagree. I A/B's the Neo-Pak LMII on a gig with my Schroeder 1210 and the LMII was considerably louder and had more headroom.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked the Neo-Pak, but for me, the voicing of the LMII coupled with the available headroom did it for me. I will freely admit, things may have been different with a different cabinet.

 

[jzucker]

I don't have any scientific data to back this up, but I disagree. I A/B's the Neo-Pak LMII on a gig with my Schroeder 1210 and the LMII was considerably louder and had more headroom.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked the Neo-Pak, but for me, the voicing of the LMII coupled with the available headroom did it for me. I will freely admit, things may have been different with a different cabinet.

There you go. That's the bottom line. Not what some specification says. Unless you run the same ratings test by the same testing facility under the same conditions and the same criteria, the specified rating is meaningless. The LM2 has incredible power and headroom. As mentioned before, I did a trio gig using an Eden WT-550 and had it up 3/4 of the way the entire night. I've yet to get the LM2 up even 1/2 way.

Jaz

 

[Brad Johnson]

Or a different amp that does the job you need better.

I was joking.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No games here at all. I'm attempting to clarify an apparent misconception that people have about the concept of power.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that an amplifier which delivers 500W into 2 ohms is a 500W amp. Will it deliver 500W into 4 ohms? No. But it doesn't claim to either....

Again, another analogy:

Is a 900HP F1 engine less/more powerful than a 900HP tractor engine? No, they both have the exact same capacity to do work. The fact that one goes faster than the other is of no relevance to their respective power ratings. Power is power. What is important is matching the type of engine with the demands of the load (i.e. don't put a low-torque F1 engine in a tractor).



Yes, I've read numerous posts which you have made which clearly infer that 2 ohm power ratings are disingenuous.

Then maybe you need to go back and actually read what I was saying was disingenuous. I didn't say 2 ohm rating by themself are disingenuous... but that's what you clearly took from it. Why?

Again, it seems that some people have some general misconceptions about the concept of power and are somehow extrapolating an arbitrary standard from their personal situation. However, there is no universally accepted standard load.

And no one said there was.

Some people have 2, 2.67, 4, 6, 8, or 16 ohm cabinets. What delivers the most power into your own personal cabinets may be the most relevant criterion to you, however, that fact doesn't have any impact on the general validity of amplifier power ratings into various loads other than your preferred load. As long as a manufacturer gives accurate ratings for both power and load, they are engaging in fair business practices.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thanks for fouling up a civil thread, Brad. I've honestly never seen such childishness. Anyone feel free to report me for calling it out. IMO you, Brad, are constantly in violation of the spirit of the law around here on Talkbass. You seem to provoke argument and needless distraction time and time again by your degrading comments, as if you are the sole member in some kind of police squad. I'm surprised this doesn't get old for you, being involved in this kind of back-and-forth quote-fest. At least in this case you had a few enablers who share your MB-centric point of view.

And thank you for the drama. As usual you are not reading for content, instead looking for some perceived slight. That's your problem, not mine.

If anyone provoked anything it was the people who wrote the statements I've questioned in this thread. You want to assume I'm being uncivil and you even go as far as to imagine me using language I clearly haven't used. Again, that's your problem, not mine.

And the icing on the cake is you calling the people who aren't in agreement with you MB-centric enablers. No doubt that's not name-calling in your world. OTOH I've politely pointed out my position without the namecalling you've resorted to.

Lighten up and read. The actual words. It's fun and you might actually learn something. Or not.

 

[Brad Johnson]

They've been engaged in factual discussions about amp design, physics, and other such ideas, not in product comparisons. There's a big difference. And if Peter Murray showed up here to talk I highly doubt the mob-squad would mind one bit.

Name-calling again.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Myself, I'd be honored to be called a Genz-Goon! laughing.. I most definitely 'are' one! The Neo-Pak is an outstanding head.

I'm surprised that no one yet has pointed out that the difference between 350 watts and 500 watts, if comparing these two amps at a 4 ohm load with a single driver cabinet, would not be that audible in a real world environment. You wouldn't even have a 3 dB difference in maximum SPL, which would require the LMII to produce twice as many watts as the Neo-Pak, or 700 watts.

When gigging the head, the Neo-Pak has the headroom available to largely negate the rated power difference at 4 ohms. Plus it has a well-designed limiter which allows the player to hit it hard on transients safely. AFAIK, the LMII does not have a limiter, so if you crank it up for max power, it will run out of headroom and distort.

Is any of this based on actual use of both amps or instead theory?

 

[sevenorchids]

I A/B'd the LMII with the Neopak this past weekend at a GTG in the South Suburbs of Chicago.

Make no mistake...the LMII is louder than the Neopak into a 4ohm load. Period. It just is. We ran the LMII and the Neopak into multiple 4ohm cabinets (one at a time, obviously) and it was louder. Not a HUGE difference at all, but it was there. There was no denying that AT ALL.

That being said, either amp is plenty loud into a 4ohm load for general stage monitoring, and medium indoor gig reinforcement. They have different voicings, so try them out if you can before making a selection. Either one would make someone very happy.

Now, if Genz came out with a Neopak 7.5 (400W@8ohm, 675@4ohm, 750W@2ohm - same as the GBE750), that would be amazing. I'm sure that Markbass and others are looking at the same thing.

All in all, a great time to be a bass player with a sub-par back.

 

[Michael Vee]

Is any of this based on actual use of both amps or instead theory?

I freely admit it's theory, and all of us who've studied acoustics know it already. And the theory is correct, but it doesn't take into account the engineering of both heads - with neither head stating a headroom rating (if those are accurate, such as the one EA publishes for the iAmps), we don't know the maximum output capability of either head.

The statement that 500 watts are not 3 dB louder than 350 watts is generic, and based solely on the stated output at 4 ohms. Technically, one needs 700 watts to double output by 3 dB over 350 watts, with everything else constant. This can be measured and proven in a lab situation.

However, in a playing situation, any given player might consider the 500 watts of the LMII to sound much louder than the 350 watts of the Neo-Pak. I know what you mean! I do think that is coming from the amp design itself being different, as well as the 150 additional watts.

I have not played an LMII. From what the actual users are saying, it has plenty of headroom. I do own a Neo-Pak, and can attest to its expansive headroom. The switching power supply was designed to emulate a standard transformer design, so that enters into its performance at high output.

With properly designed limiting, a transistor amp can be run much harder at high volumes before unacceptable and/or dangerous clipping occurs. The Neo-Pak does have a limiter, while the LMII does not. (I just checked the Markbass website to confirm this.)

I'm going to leave it at that and let the company reps and the engineers, who know much more about this than I, have at it. I know a little, not a lot, and am NOT an engineer.

Something we can all agree on: Players should play the gear that works for them. If Genz, great; if MarkBass, great. It's all good gear!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thanks, Michael.

I've seen the theory expressed numerous times and in my experience while it's likely a good general rule, in actual application it's very easy to find amps in this power range where there is most definitely a noticeable difference without doubling wattage. Again, the difference between my 350w @4 ohm iAmp350 and the LMII is very obvious. The difference between my AMP BH420 and Thunderfunk TFB420 and the LMII is just as obvious, even though they're only rated 80w less.

As far as the need for limiting, haven't experienced that yet and I've cut the LMII loose in many situations where I easily got louder than I needed.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I A/B'd the LMII with the Neopak this past weekend at a GTG in the South Suburbs of Chicago.

Make no mistake...the LMII is louder than the Neopak into a 4ohm load. Period. It just is. We ran the LMII and the Neopak into multiple 4ohm cabinets (one at a time, obviously) and it was louder. Not a HUGE difference at all, but it was there. There was no denying that AT ALL.

That being said, either amp is plenty loud into a 4ohm load for general stage monitoring, and medium indoor gig reinforcement. They have different voicings, so try them out if you can before making a selection. Either one would make someone very happy.

Now, if Genz came out with a Neopak 7.5 (400W@8ohm, 675@4ohm, 750W@2ohm - same as the GBE750), that would be amazing. I'm sure that Markbass and others are looking at the same thing.

All in all, a great time to be a bass player with a sub-par back.

Agreed.

 

[agedhorse]

How gracefully any amp overloads (via limiters, preamp circuitry and output stage) certainly contributes to the overall perceived volume, and playability/feel. A good amp designer recognizes this and incorporates these design principles into their designs IMO.

 

[Brad Johnson]

How gracefully any amp overloads (via limiters, preamp circuitry and output stage) certainly contributes to the overall perceived volume, and playability/feel. A good amp designer recognizes this and incorporates these design principles into their designs IMO.

Agreed and volume is most certainly a perception.

 

[Big String]

I A/B'd the LMII with the Neopak this past weekend at a GTG in the South Suburbs of Chicago.

Make no mistake...the LMII is louder than the Neopak into a 4ohm load. Period. It just is. We ran the LMII and the Neopak into multiple 4ohm cabinets (one at a time, obviously) and it was louder. Not a HUGE difference at all, but it was there. There was no denying that AT ALL.

That being said, either amp is plenty loud into a 4ohm load for general stage monitoring, and medium indoor gig reinforcement. They have different voicings, so try them out if you can before making a selection. Either one would make someone very happy.

Now, if Genz came out with a Neopak 7.5 (400W@8ohm, 675@4ohm, 750W@2ohm - same as the GBE750), that would be amazing. I'm sure that Markbass and others are looking at the same thing.

All in all, a great time to be a bass player with a sub-par back.

Plus One.
I was there and it was my LMII.
Both very cool amps not to mention all the other nice gear and great fun and great company! Can't wait for the next one.

 

[CElton]

Now, if Genz came out with a Neopak 7.5 (400W@8ohm, 675@4ohm, 750W@2ohm - same as the GBE750), that would be amazing.

If they could do that in the same footprint/chassis as the Neo-Pak, I would be all over it.

 

[KJung]

If they could do that in the same footprint/chassis as the Neo-Pak, I would be all over it.

Dave Funk pretty much did this with his soon to be released TF800 (not sure it that will be the final name).

17 pounds, two rack space.... 750 into 4 and I think 850 into 2 or something like that. And, amazing enough, a traditional power supply!

 

[jzucker]

by the way, contrary to what someone else on this thread posted, the LMII sounds great for DB or EUB.

 

[CElton]

Dave Funk pretty much did this with his soon to be released TF800 (not sure it that will be the final name).

17 pounds, two rack space.... 750 into 4 and I think 850 into 2 or something like that. And, amazing enough, a traditional power supply!

Yes...I am patiently waiting on that to hit the market as well. Actually, "patiently" would not be a good word.

 

[agedhorse]

Just to step back for a minute and look at the big picture... it's a great time to be a bass player isn't it?

There's an awful lot of really good gear available by most manufacturers and it's kind of funny to be discussing the fine points of a feature/performance that didn't really exist even a few years back.

I think we all should extend some appreciation and credit to Walter Woods for leading the pack (and in some ways defining the market) in the basic concept of compact bass amps. He was ahead of his time and deserves some credit for where the market is (and will be) headed.