• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

LM2 vs. NeoPak

#121
Brad Johnson said:
And that has been my contention all along. And that's why I have such a problem with "same power, rated differently".
:)
Click to expand...

Did you read my earlier post on the definition of power? Power represents the ability to do work over time. Delivering 500W of power is delivering 500W of power, regardless of the size of the load driven. The practical solution is to match the load of your cabinets with the abilities of your amplifier, not berate manufacturers who produce amps which drive low impedance loads because you don't require 2 ohm drive capacity.

Assuming that the ratings are accurate, an amp's ability to deliver power into its rated load what matters here. The bottom line is that if a given amp delivers its maximum power into a different load than that presented by your present cabinets, then you probably want another amp (or different cabinets)....

:bassist:
 
#122
If it was called the "Neopak 500", I would be irked. As it is, the "3.5" seems to represent the 350W @ 4 ohms, which seems to be honest if I've read everything correctly, so there is no spin. If the LMII claimed to put out 1000W or whatever safely into 2 ohms, then somebody who needed 2 ohm capability would have a reason to compare their ratings. But as it stands, the Neopak is advertised as a 350W amp that can achieve higher wattage at 2 ohms.

Edit: I just went on to Musiciansfriend to confirm my recollection about the advertising and stats, and found this:
It has 225W power at 4 ohms or 350W at 8 ohms...
Click to expand...
and they repeat that as a bullet point: "225W power @ 4 ohms/350W power @ 8 ohms"
:rolleyes:
 
#123
12bass said:
Did you read my earlier post on the definition of power?
Click to expand...

Are you reading mine? Do you disagree that there is a context for those measurements?

Power represents the ability to do work over time. Delivering 500W of power is delivering 500W of power, regardless of the size of the load driven.
Click to expand...

In this context, what exactly does "regardless" mean? Does it mean that regardless of cabs, ohms, what?
:hmm:

The practical solution is to match the load of your cabinets with the abilities of your amplifier, not berate manufacturers who produce amps which drive low impedance loads because you don't require 2 ohm drive capacity.
Click to expand...


I'm not berating Genz Benz about ANYTHING. I did mention that back in the day, meaning back in the 1970's in this case when TWO OHM OPERATION was by and large the exception, marketing an amp with it's 2 ohm capabability, particularly while selling it with a cab that wasn't 2 ohms wasn't exactly truth in advertising. And I specifically said Peavey, not Genz Benz. Problem?

I already mentioned that the cabs to be used should be a consideration. Did you not see that?

Assuming that the ratings are accurate, an amp's ability to deliver power into its rated load what matters here.
Click to expand...

And as such the results may very well be different if you use an amp rated at 500w @2ohms into a 4 ohm load... than an amp that does 500w @ 4 ohms. Disagree or is this also regardless of something?
:)

The bottom line is that if a given amp delivers its maximum power into a different load than that presented by your present cabinets, then you probably want another amp (or different cabinets)....

:bassist:
Click to expand...

That sounds strangely like what I've been saying. What exactly was your point?
:D
 
#125
Brad Johnson said:
Are you reading mine? Do you disagree that there is a context for those measurements?

In this context, what exactly does "regardless" mean? Does it mean that regardless of cabs, ohms, what?
Click to expand...

What I was getting at is that delivering 500W of power into x ohms is the same as delivering 500W of power into y ohms. Regardless of the different loads, it's still 500W of power delivered into each load. Further, an amp which delivers 500W into x ohms is not less powerful than an amp which delivers 500W into y ohms - they are equally powerful. Thus, there is no foul if the power and load ratings are both accurately specified by the manufacturer.
 
#126
12bass said:
What I was getting at is that delivering 500W of power into x ohms is the same as delivering 500W of power into y ohms. Regardless of the different loads, it's still 500W of power delivered into each load. Thus, there is no foul if the power and load ratings are both accurately specified by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...


I'm not saying there is a foul, I'm saying that as a usable measurement, amps that deliver 500w at 2 ohms and 500w at 4 ohms are not the same, regardless.

I happen to agree with this statement. Do you?:

agedhorse said:
Power ratings have no meaning unless the load is also mentioned... in the same sentence. The two go hand in hand and can't be seperated otherwise the meaning of power rating is completly lost.
Click to expand...
 
#127
Brad Johnson said:
I'm not saying there is a foul, I'm saying that as a usable measurement, 500w at 2 ohms and 500w at 4 ohms are not the same, regardless.
Click to expand...

My point is that both amplifiers deliver the exact same amount of power, but into different loads. Yes, both power and load rating are important. What I don't understand is the suggestion that a 2 ohm rating is somehow less valid. It's perfectly valid if you have two 4 ohm cabinets (like I do!). Neither is better. It all depends on the impedance of your cabinets....
 
#128
12bass said:
My point is that both amplifiers deliver the exact same amount of power, but into different loads. What I don't understand is the suggestion that a 2 ohm rating is somehow less valid. It's perfectly valid if you have two 4 ohm cabinets (like I do!). Neither is better. It all depends on the impedance of your cabinets....
Click to expand...

Tell me who said it was less valid?

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
 
#129
I guess another way to put this concept would be... How does an amp rated at 500 watts at 2 ohms not be a 500 watt amp at 2 ohms?

Just like a 500 watt amp at 4 ohms isn't a 500 watt amp at 8 ohms...

This entire concept is being taken out of context folks. Look at the ratings and choose a product that suits your needs for the cabinet load(s) that you need to use.
 
#131
12bass said:
What I was getting at is that delivering 500W of power into x ohms is the same as delivering 500W of power into y ohms. Regardless of the different loads, it's still 500W of power delivered into each load. Further, an amp which delivers 500W into x ohms is not less powerful than an amp which delivers 500W into y ohms - they are equally powerful. Thus, there is no foul if the power and load ratings are both accurately specified by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Disagree. You're playing spec games. If I run into a 4 ohm cab, i'm interested in the most power I can get out of 4 ohms. Likewise, if I run into an 8 ohm cab, etc., etc...

Why this is so difficult to understand is mind-boggling.
 
#133
12bass said:
Here's one example:



It seems to me that there might be a misunderstanding at work here regarding the concept of power.
Click to expand...

Misunderstanding? Did you actually read what you quoted?

"IMO stating watts at two ohms without highlighting the fact that it is at 2 ohms is a marketing ploy that's been around for a long time".

Should I highlight the relevant parts you seem to be ignoring? Like "without"?
:D

Did I say GB was doing this? Did I not give an example of a company I felt had done it?
 
#136
jzucker said:
Disagree. You're playing spec games. If I run into a 4 ohm cab, i'm interested in the most power I can get out of 4 ohms. Likewise, if I run into an 8 ohm cab, etc., etc...

Why this is so difficult to understand is mind-boggling.
Click to expand...

No games here at all. I'm attempting to clarify an apparent misconception that people have about the concept of power.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that an amplifier which delivers 500W into 2 ohms is a 500W amp. Will it deliver 500W into 4 ohms? No. But it doesn't claim to either....

Again, another analogy:

Is a 900HP F1 engine less/more powerful than a 900HP tractor engine? No, they both have the exact same capacity to do work. The fact that one goes faster than the other is of no relevance to their respective power ratings. Power is power. What is important is matching the type of engine with the demands of the load (i.e. don't put a low-torque F1 engine in a tractor).

Brad Johnson said:
Misunderstanding? Did you actually read what you quoted?
Click to expand...

Yes, I've read numerous posts which you have made which clearly infer that 2 ohm power ratings are disingenuous.

Again, it seems that some people have some general misconceptions about the concept of power and are somehow extrapolating an arbitrary standard from their personal situation. However, there is no universally accepted standard load. Some people have 2, 2.67, 4, 6, 8, or 16 ohm cabinets. What delivers the most power into your own personal cabinets may be the most relevant criterion to you, however, that fact doesn't have any impact on the general validity of amplifier power ratings into various loads other than your preferred load. As long as a manufacturer gives accurate ratings for both power and load, they are engaging in fair business practices.
 
#138
Yeesh.

OK. If your normal cab load is 4-ohm (either single 4-ohm or two 8-ohm) then the LMII is LOUDER (or has a higher wattage rating) than the Genz. That's cool. It did sound a bit louder into my GB 212T (a 4 ohm cabinet).

If, like me, you have a 4 ohm and 8 ohm cabinet, then you can use both with the Genz Neopak and it sounds great. If you want to do the same thing with the LMII, well, you can't without putting the amp in peril.

Please note, the LMII is a fantastic amp. Really a little powerhouse and anyone choosing one wouldn't go wrong. The fact that I PREFER the GB, partly due to the voicing and partly due to the 2-ohm capability, shouldn't sway anyone one way or another.

Again, I prefer having a 4-ohm cabinet as my main cab. That way, I can wring as much power as possible (since there aren't many, if any, 2 ohm cabs out there) during a single cabinet gig. If I need more speaker surface area, I can add a 4 ohm or 8 ohm cab to my rig. If I don't have that option, then I am stuck.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.
 
#139
Thanks for fouling up a civil thread, Brad. I've honestly never seen such childishness. Anyone feel free to report me for calling it out. IMO you, Brad, are constantly in violation of the spirit of the law around here on Talkbass. You seem to provoke argument and needless distraction time and time again by your degrading comments, as if you are the sole member in some kind of police squad. I'm surprised this doesn't get old for you, being involved in this kind of back-and-forth quote-fest. At least in this case you had a few enablers who share your MB-centric point of view.
 
#140
Here's an example of why 2 ohms may be a necessary specification:

I got an e-mail from a player who had a (very nice) compact 8 ohm 410 cabinet and a NeoPak amp. That was his rig, nothing more. He wanted to maximize the output for his application, so a simple re-wiring of his cabinet to 2 ohms total load was the best solution for his application. In this case, an amp rated at 4 ohms was not a good choice for him as the NeoPak gave him more power (full 500 watts) than an amp that would have required him to leave his cabinet wired at 8 ohms. It is not possible to wire an 8 ohm 410 to 4 ohms.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back