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Locking in with a drummer

#21
JimmyM said:
"Locking in with a drummer" is a real dumb term invented by rock bands in the 60's who had crappy guitarists-turned-bassists to try and give the bassist some direction. Nowadays it's been misintereted by a generation of soundbyte loving noodniks as "the bassist must follow the drummer and do what he does." Pffft to that! Some of the best music ever recorded has the bassist stepping all over the drummer and it sounds great. Time and a place for everything...
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carlthegroover said:
Example?
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I'm curious and interested to hear which recordings these are also.
 
#22
as others have said ....the simplest way to start down the path of locking in (when playing rock, pop, country) is to work with the drummer so that the kick drum and bass rhythm go together. some music doesn't call for this but much does.

talk to the drummer about the kick pattern ...be aware of the proper kick pattern for a cover song before band practice....


the things Malcolm is talking about is sorta the NEXT level of locking in ...where there is a good deal of experience in the drum and bass players ....are we feeling this together? is the drummer rushing a bit when the bass player is laying back playing relaxed ....that stuff comes with time and experience and playing with different players!

you get to know your own strength and weakness' as you progress ....i am a life long rusher time wise...so i have to constantly remind myself to relax the groove!
 
#23
bassinplace said:
I'm curious and interested to hear which recordings these are also.
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really....music is a huge thing...alot of different stuff, although i wouldn't advocate blowing off the notion of following kick patterns there is alot of music where the bass and drums are individual in approach .....even simple rock stuff where the bass is all about 8th notes is an example to fusion, heavy metal etc where there is alot more going on then a pop groove with the kick and bass on 1 ...+ 3

but ...i may i be so bold as to say 'locking in with the drummer" is NOT a DUMB term!
 
#24
sammyp said:
really....music is a huge thing...alot of different stuff, although i wouldn't advocate blowing off the notion of following kick patterns there is alot of music where the bass and drums are individual in approach .....even simple rock stuff where the bass is all about 8th notes is an example to fusion, heavy metal etc where there is alot more going on then a pop groove with the kick and bass on 1 ...+ 3

but ...i may i be so bold as to say 'locking in with the drummer" is NOT a DUMB term!
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I'm open to the idea of "stepping on the drums" and having it sound good, that's why I'm interested as to what recordings JimmyM might be referring to.
 
#25
bassinplace said:
I'm open to the idea of "stepping on the drums" and having it sound good, that's why I'm interested as to what recordings JimmyM might be referring to.
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i prefer to look at it as "doing independant things" ....anytime in music we talk about stepping on someone it's usually in a negative or immature context! just IMO

but i guess you could look at classic funk that way ....the drums are fairly steady and simple where the bass is more interesting rhythmically....however they are still very much locked in.
 
#26
sammyp said:
i prefer to look at it as "doing independant things" ....anytime in music we talk about stepping on someone it's usually in a negative or immature context! just IMO

but i guess you could look at classic funk that way ....the drums are fairly steady and simple where the bass is more interesting rhythmically....however they are still very much locked in.
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Well, I'll defer to Mr. M if he wishes to qualify his statement. If any recordings spring to your mind as well, post 'em! I'd love to give a listen!
 
#27
JimmyM said:
Some of the best music ever recorded has the bassist stepping all over the drummer and it sounds great.
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carlthegroover said:
Example?
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I'm sure there are people who would disagree about this being "some of the best music ever recorded," but IMHO, a lot of the stuff Phil Lesh played with the Grateful Dead could be described by the above statements. Also, Dee Murray (played with Elton John until he passed away :crying:) had an interesting knack for playing precisely on beat with the kick drum at times and playing all over the place (rhythmically) at other times. Despite that, he and Nigel Olsson (possibly my favorite rhythm section ever) were (almost) always super tight.
 
#28
Good examples with the Dead and Elton, although I kind of agree about the Dead ;) I'd also throw in a lot of old Motown. Jamerson often played circles around the drums. A lot of old KISS, while not everyone's thing, has some great examples of Gene ignoring the bass drum and it still sounds hot. I can think of more but my brain is pretty gone after a 14 hour day.
 
#29
DWBass said:
This is easily acheived if your drummer has good meter and plays a constant kick pattern! When drummers vary their meter and patterns it makes it extremely difficult for me to lock in with them. It means they are not 'listening' to me or anyone else in the band! The drummer drives everything. If he's off, the band is off!

Many will say lock in with the kick drum but it's not always about that! To me, tempo and a constant driving pattern make for a tight rhythm section. I call it 'pocket' playing!

Gotta be in the 'pocket'!
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+ 1,000,000 and a bag of potato chips!!

I really wish you could sit down and talk to our drummer at our church. For some reason, she doesn't seem to understand the concept of "play in the pocket" or keep it "on the 1." :rolleyes: She constantly solos through an entire song and does her own thang. Sometimes I just stop playing until she calms down and gets back to realty. Then, I'll resume playing again.
 
#32
JimmyM said:
"Locking in with a drummer" is a real dumb term invented by rock bands in the 60's who had crappy guitarists-turned-bassists to try and give the bassist some direction. Nowadays it's been misintereted by a generation of soundbyte loving noodniks as "the bassist must follow the drummer and do what he does." Pffft to that! Some of the best music ever recorded has the bassist stepping all over the drummer and it sounds great. Time and a place for everything...
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this. I have played with some great and not so great drummers, but NONE of them have ever kept a steady consistent kick pattern for me to "lock" into. They all seem to get happy feet after a fashion, turning songs into an extended start to finish drum solo.

For me locking in with the drummer just means listening and making the groove work no matter how much others are trying to derail it. With a good drummer, like the one I work with now, it's easy. I am usually the one that must adapt, but hey, I'm a bass player. It seems it always falls to us to make it work.

The end of the day, it is about listening to the whole and making it work somehow. I wish it were as simple as that sounds! Bottom line, if everyone is LISTENING, the band will lock up as a unit. Otherwise, forget about it.
 
#36
ericmknight1906 said:
+ 1,000,000 and a bag of potato chips!!

I really wish you could sit down and talk to our drummer at our church. For some reason, she doesn't seem to understand the concept of "play in the pocket" or keep it "on the 1." :rolleyes: She constantly solos through an entire song and does her own thang. Sometimes I just stop playing until she calms down and gets back to realty. Then, I'll resume playing again.
Click to expand...

Turn her on to some Steve Gadd. He, in my opinion, is the perennial pocket drummer.
 
#38
sricks3 said:
I'm sure there are people who would disagree about this being "some of the best music ever recorded," but IMHO, a lot of the stuff Phil Lesh played with the Grateful Dead could be described by the above statements. Also, Dee Murray (played with Elton John until he passed away :crying:) had an interesting knack for playing precisely on beat with the kick drum at times and playing all over the place (rhythmically) at other times. Despite that, he and Nigel Olsson (possibly my favorite rhythm section ever) were (almost) always super tight.
Click to expand...

Good examples of this are throughout the early Elton records. Particularly on Honky Chateau. You'll find Dee almost is the rhythmic anchor on some songs whilst Nigel plays around and vice versa. I totally agree that Dee and Nigel had an innate sense of each others' playing.
 
#39
Based on the responses, Seems that "locking in with the drummer" is a phrase that has no specific musical meaning. Perhaps it belongs in the "over-emphasized hyperbole" basket with "groove" and "feel". ("you know it when you feel it" responses are a dead give away for such concepts)

Can it really mean anything other than both bass and drums playing with solid tempo and good dynamics?

To answer the OP's question: with experience we all get more sensitive to whether or not our rhythm and the drummers rhythm are in sync, and the quicker we compensate when we notice things going off. (I believe no player has perfect time: they just get faster at adjusting) we also become more aware of playing ahead/on/behind the beat (I know I have). For me the biggest hint that things are going awry is when the fall of the snare starts to feel out of place. That and Hitting the "1" at different times :P
 

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