i studied and learned that the bass should match the kick as well as locking in with same tempo and rhythm.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Locking in with a drummer
- Thread starter conttador
- Start date
- Jan 4, 2010
- 233
- 13
- 49
- Disclosures
- Band is sponsored by Trinity Amps and Sennheiser.
This is probably just my opinion, but locking in has nothing to do with tempo, beat, lining up with the kick or any of that. Locking in is when you and the drummer, or any other musician really, when you're playing the same song.
"Locking in" is one of many terms that inadequately try to convey the idea that you are of one mind on a certain song. Doesn't mean you'll be playing the same thing, only that you'll both be vying for the same end result. You can discuss the effects of this with theories and measurements until you're blue in the face, and it would be effective and it would help, but you'd be missing the point. If you're looking at measurements and theories, you're not even talking about music anymore.
Music isn't about the sounds and how they're arranged, it's about what the sounds mean. And what "locking in" means, to me of course, is that you and the other musicians hear the exact same song in your head, you're just playing different parts of it. So to facilitate this, one would make sure one is capable of understanding what the other musician is trying to convey. Really listen before you try to measure it. How does it feel? How does it make you feel. Now, use your instrument to help the other musicians play that song. Or show us how the song makes you feel and take the lead. Or help support someone who is taking the lead. Achieve this and you'll notice all the effects everyone has so efficiently pointed out, and more.
"Locking in" is one of many terms that inadequately try to convey the idea that you are of one mind on a certain song. Doesn't mean you'll be playing the same thing, only that you'll both be vying for the same end result. You can discuss the effects of this with theories and measurements until you're blue in the face, and it would be effective and it would help, but you'd be missing the point. If you're looking at measurements and theories, you're not even talking about music anymore.
Music isn't about the sounds and how they're arranged, it's about what the sounds mean. And what "locking in" means, to me of course, is that you and the other musicians hear the exact same song in your head, you're just playing different parts of it. So to facilitate this, one would make sure one is capable of understanding what the other musician is trying to convey. Really listen before you try to measure it. How does it feel? How does it make you feel. Now, use your instrument to help the other musicians play that song. Or show us how the song makes you feel and take the lead. Or help support someone who is taking the lead. Achieve this and you'll notice all the effects everyone has so efficiently pointed out, and more.
Tom's post directly above this one is one of the more thoughtful comments on this topic that I've read on TB. Interesting.
It's really hard to describe what "locking with the drummer" means as people use the phrase in different ways. I prefer the simpler concept of just working well with a drummer. And that has nothing at all to do with always having invariant kick patterns, playing bass in unison with the kick, being behind/on/in front of the beat while various kit components do the same or something different. All those things can work at times, or not - they're not hard and fast rules for how a bassist and drummer should play together.
As others have said, a big part of what happens when musicians work well together is about mutual listening, empathy and interaction. There's no formula for that, and if you try to define one and play accordingly, it will probably sound like it.
It's really hard to describe what "locking with the drummer" means as people use the phrase in different ways. I prefer the simpler concept of just working well with a drummer. And that has nothing at all to do with always having invariant kick patterns, playing bass in unison with the kick, being behind/on/in front of the beat while various kit components do the same or something different. All those things can work at times, or not - they're not hard and fast rules for how a bassist and drummer should play together.
As others have said, a big part of what happens when musicians work well together is about mutual listening, empathy and interaction. There's no formula for that, and if you try to define one and play accordingly, it will probably sound like it.
+1
Locking in (to me) simply means to have a solid connection with the drums and percussions.
When i think straight up locked in...i think of tower of power with Rocco...and Jimmy mentioned stepping on...but i like to think of it as stepping out ...check out this video of Kurt Rosenwinkel
Kurt Rosenwinkel Group - The Next Step [2004] - YouTube
Kurt Rosenwinkel Group - The Next Step [2004] - YouTube
I have played with multiple drummers now, and as with all musicans there are some bad ones, some okay ones and some great ones. But I've also found that there is always that one drummer you can always "lock in" with, a good experiment I think is getting the drummer to lay down a beat and the guitarist to solo over it, If you bridge the gap between these two instruments and make the ensamble sound like a band, then you have achieved your role in the band
While I think its time you guys got a drummers perspective on locking in. In a simple song play simply and generally follow the bass drum, watch your drummer if hes any good he will be into the feel of his beat and you can predict his actions, same goes for drummers but playing 4 limbs at a time takes a lot more concentration than 2. Also if you only play the bass with the bass drum the drummer can't really hear you.
Which leads me into more complicated playing where you want to either be in step or working against the drummers pocket groove, ie bass, snare, hi-hats/ride. Often I would recommend following the hi hats for time and the snare for placement because we use the bass drum to have a musical conversation with you and the piece. Then on top of this you can add playing ahead/behind the beat, or maybe the drummer will do that and you play dead on.
When you both can communicate ideas to each other without thinking you are locked in. Notice how I largely ignore tempo, unless you play with machines a songs tempo will breath a bit (not the same as not keeping time) and both of you need to feel this.
Lastly is my view on drummers and bassists position in a band. The drummer isn't so much directly supporting the lead but adding the right ambiance for the lead to work within. Drums only are viewed as supporting because we are so loud if you don't watch everyone else it falls apart. The bassist on the other hand is the glue that brings that beat together with the lead and gives it solidity. As a drummer I can rein in a guitar player going crazy, but I can't do it as subtly as a good bass player. The bass player really is the one who has the most room to work within, you can work off any instrument, do cool stuff yet not be intrusive.
Whew that was long and still doesn't entirely getting the idea across. Hope it helps seeing from the other side.
PS if you can't lock in after a few practices get a new drummer or get better at bass.
Which leads me into more complicated playing where you want to either be in step or working against the drummers pocket groove, ie bass, snare, hi-hats/ride. Often I would recommend following the hi hats for time and the snare for placement because we use the bass drum to have a musical conversation with you and the piece. Then on top of this you can add playing ahead/behind the beat, or maybe the drummer will do that and you play dead on.
When you both can communicate ideas to each other without thinking you are locked in. Notice how I largely ignore tempo, unless you play with machines a songs tempo will breath a bit (not the same as not keeping time) and both of you need to feel this.
Lastly is my view on drummers and bassists position in a band. The drummer isn't so much directly supporting the lead but adding the right ambiance for the lead to work within. Drums only are viewed as supporting because we are so loud if you don't watch everyone else it falls apart. The bassist on the other hand is the glue that brings that beat together with the lead and gives it solidity. As a drummer I can rein in a guitar player going crazy, but I can't do it as subtly as a good bass player. The bass player really is the one who has the most room to work within, you can work off any instrument, do cool stuff yet not be intrusive.
Whew that was long and still doesn't entirely getting the idea across. Hope it helps seeing from the other side.
PS if you can't lock in after a few practices get a new drummer or get better at bass.
I hate the term "locking in with the drummer" ... as there is only the bass player who lock with the drum ... everyone else can play whatever the f*** they want it doesn't matter because bass and drum work together...
I don't even listen to drum when I play, I just play. At one point what I play will go together with what the play ... same thing with the guitar !!!
I come from a classical background where there is no drum that pound a steady beat. I prefer drummer that are a part of the song than a big oversize metronome for the next 4 min.
I don't even listen to drum when I play, I just play. At one point what I play will go together with what the play ... same thing with the guitar !!!
I come from a classical background where there is no drum that pound a steady beat. I prefer drummer that are a part of the song than a big oversize metronome for the next 4 min.
I agree with Tom and certainly disagree with Clef. The drummer and I are playing together...both leading, both following....I don't know how to explain it.
I'm not just listening to the drummer....I'm IGNORING the guitars and giving the vocalist enough attention to know where she is and if we have to add an extra measure or two for her to get back on track (which sometimes happens).
It's all about the rhythym section - me and the drummer. The two guitar players in my band can suck my big fat E string if they think I'm ever going to follow them. It's their job to stay with us....and if we do our job, the song sounds great.
To these guitar players, I'm like the floor. They don't notice me, unless I'm not there! Then, they're screwed....
I'm not just listening to the drummer....I'm IGNORING the guitars and giving the vocalist enough attention to know where she is and if we have to add an extra measure or two for her to get back on track (which sometimes happens).
It's all about the rhythym section - me and the drummer. The two guitar players in my band can suck my big fat E string if they think I'm ever going to follow them. It's their job to stay with us....and if we do our job, the song sounds great.
To these guitar players, I'm like the floor. They don't notice me, unless I'm not there! Then, they're screwed....
I find it most challenging to keep the lock with the drummer and rest of the band when moving to the next part of a song (e.g. from verse to chorus). I recently realized that I use eye-contact and body gestures to keep synchronized. I watched a video recording of our rehearsal and noticed that we naturally (without thinking about it) use this kind of communication a lot weve been playing together for 2 or 3 years now.
I wrote a lesson about it for my friends blog: Link Removed . You can see some examples of how we communicate to maintain the lock in the video (time references are noted in the lesson text bullet No 3.).
I wrote a lesson about it for my friends blog: Link Removed . You can see some examples of how we communicate to maintain the lock in the video (time references are noted in the lesson text bullet No 3.).
Groove Master
Commercial User
- Apr 22, 2011
- 1,808
- 1,291
- Disclosures
- Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
Every band I have been in, I have had a great rapport with my drummer. Notice I said with "my" drummer. Rhythm section, baby!!
That has always been the case, until my most recent band, when our original drummer left and we replaced him with our current one.
Not being in sync, or having that aforementioned rapport is like the square peg, round hole syndrome. It's terrible. Since I have had the pleasure of playing with some really good drummers, when it's not there.. ugh.
Of course, I have been lobbying to kick this guy to the curb for that very reason. Not too mention the love affair with his toms, the inability to embrace solid time-keeping.. You know, the whole drummer thing. Feeling the need to "stick click" me to keep me in time
Gee, thanks metro-putz.
I particularly enjoy the stories of how he was a session drummer for this person and that person...
Um, ok. I mean, then WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEN AND NOW????
To clarify my toms comment - rather than keep a cool steady beat, he feels the need to "break up the beat" with dissonant tom tom breakdowns that bring every song flow to a screeching halt. It's maddening. EVERY SONG. I don't want to tell him how to play the drums (even tho I've played on and off for 12 years myself) but God Lord.... reacquaint youself with the hi-hat side of the kit for the love of Pete.
But in the eyes of the others, he's safe, reliable, normal (by drummer standards).. so he remains. He actually is the second drummer after our original drummer left. The first kid was outstanding, but he had issues (money, junk, unreliable) so the rest of the guys opted for the safer option.
Oh well.
All that said, when the drummer/bass thing is working, it is a thing of beauty.
Argh.. Did I hear a stick click.....
That has always been the case, until my most recent band, when our original drummer left and we replaced him with our current one.
Not being in sync, or having that aforementioned rapport is like the square peg, round hole syndrome. It's terrible. Since I have had the pleasure of playing with some really good drummers, when it's not there.. ugh.
Of course, I have been lobbying to kick this guy to the curb for that very reason. Not too mention the love affair with his toms, the inability to embrace solid time-keeping.. You know, the whole drummer thing. Feeling the need to "stick click" me to keep me in time
Gee, thanks metro-putz. I particularly enjoy the stories of how he was a session drummer for this person and that person...
Um, ok. I mean, then WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEN AND NOW????To clarify my toms comment - rather than keep a cool steady beat, he feels the need to "break up the beat" with dissonant tom tom breakdowns that bring every song flow to a screeching halt. It's maddening. EVERY SONG. I don't want to tell him how to play the drums (even tho I've played on and off for 12 years myself) but God Lord.... reacquaint youself with the hi-hat side of the kit for the love of Pete.
But in the eyes of the others, he's safe, reliable, normal (by drummer standards).. so he remains. He actually is the second drummer after our original drummer left. The first kid was outstanding, but he had issues (money, junk, unreliable) so the rest of the guys opted for the safer option.
Oh well.
All that said, when the drummer/bass thing is working, it is a thing of beauty.
Argh.. Did I hear a stick click.....
Not as simple as you would think. You and your drummer must become one like a marriage or a long partnership and you start finishing each others sentences. Focusing on the kick is a great place to start and it is about landing on the beat of the kick drum but ,not only playing one note(root note) but adding a bass line or groove that hits on the kick I think a good example for me was Bruce Springsteen's bass player Garry Tallent listen to Hungry Heart and Glory days both bass lines are interesting enough and tight on the kick drum that is locking in with the drummer. Later on as you spend more time playing together the drum fills and bass fill lock comes into play and you know what he is going to do before he does it. That is when the really magic of the bands foundation comes alive.
Locking in is all about feel to me. When you feel the pocket and your in it with a drummer you will know it. I played over the weekend with a drummer I have never heard or met. After one song we melted together and I could hang with him all night. He had great meter, a solid kick, tight snare, high/hat patterns and never lost the tempo sped up or slowed down. A guy like this makes it easy to find the pocket.
So far I have found only 1 drummer where I have locked in with, we jammed for about half an hour and we knew exactly when the beat was going to change and exactly when each other was going to stop without even looking at each other or even talking to each other, when you can feel the groove and rythm between you two then you know you have locked.
I found it to be a very high sensation feeling when we clicked and locked, like I just closed my eyes and didnt think about anything and my fingers knew where to go and I instantly knew what rythm, beat and groove to play. a truely wonderful experience that I hope you all get to experience one day!
I found it to be a very high sensation feeling when we clicked and locked, like I just closed my eyes and didnt think about anything and my fingers knew where to go and I instantly knew what rythm, beat and groove to play. a truely wonderful experience that I hope you all get to experience one day!
