Double Bass Looking for first pickup

[MountainMikeCS]

Hi all,

I'm learning the double bass - been playing electric about 30 years and I'm loving the upright. Starting to bring it to jams and where eyerone can hear me but I can't hear it - jams can get big and loud in a large cement-floor room with a high ceiling. I want to get a pickup to capture the natural bass sound for both hearing myself live and a little home recording.

I play mostly pizzicato but am learning arco and slap as well.

From what I've heard online I really like the full, natural sound of a KNA 4099s and Yamahikos though Yamahikos can get pretty expensive. I'm not crazy about piezo sound - which is a shame since Fishman pickups are everywhere and more affordable. I wouldnt shy away from a piezo- style pickup if it didnt sound like one!

For the KNA there seems to be dozens out there at different prices.

I'm trying to spend under $200 bit will go over some.

For amplificatio I have a new Aquilar ToneHammer 350 bass head on the way so I can double - will put it through either my SWR Goliath Jr. II 2x10 cab or a Hartke XL 210 cab or a combo of the two.

I was wondering what pickup you folls would recommend?

Also - for mic-style pickups like the KNA - how much is bleed a problem? The people I play with tend to play very loud.

Thanks all!

 

[Ric Vice]

We’ll, the KNA~DB1 is a nice easy to install pickup I own on as a backup. There is much love for Vic’s Pickup’s. here on TB.
Like you I’m not fond of piezo’s so I generally use Remic Microphones when it’s feasible. They are out of your budget.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Hi all,

I'm learning the double bass - been playing electric about 30 years and I'm loving the upright. Starting to bring it to jams and where eyerone can hear me but I can't hear it - jams can get big and loud in a large cement-floor room with a high ceiling. I want to get a pickup to capture the natural bass sound for both hearing myself live and a little home recording.

I play mostly pizzicato but am learning arco and slap as well.

From what I've heard online I really like the full, natural sound of a KNA 4099s and Yamahikos though Yamahikos can get pretty expensive. I'm not crazy about piezo sound - which is a shame since Fishman pickups are everywhere and more affordable. I wouldnt shy away from a piezo- style pickup if it didnt sound like one!

For the KNA there seems to be dozens out there at different prices.

I'm trying to spend under $200 bit will go over some.

For amplificatio I have a new Aquilar ToneHammer 350 bass head on the way so I can double - will put it through either my SWR Goliath Jr. II 2x10 cab or a Hartke XL 210 cab or a combo of the two.

I was wondering what pickup you folls would recommend?

Also - for mic-style pickups like the KNA - how much is bleed a problem? The people I play with tend to play very loud.

Thanks all!

Do you mean DPA 4099? That's a microphone. It won't work well through a bass amp in general.

The KNA's are just a bridge wing piezo pickups as far as I know. There are some review threads here from users.

Plugging straight into the amp without a dedicated preamp for piezos/upright will bring limited results.

 

[bherman]

Piezo pickup with a preamp will deal with most of the tonal quality problems. I use two different ones, on my Eminence EUB I use a Realist Lifeline and on my full-size bass a Full Circle. I prefer the Lifeline. For a preamp I either use a fDeck (useful because its both an impedance-matching preamp and an hpf) or a Mesa Subway + (much more expensive). I also have and have used a Krio magnetic pickup, which does not require a preamp.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Hi all, I'm learning the double bass - been playing electric about 30 years and I'm loving the upright. Starting to bring it to jams and where eyerone can hear me but I can't hear it - jams can get big and loud in a large cement-floor room with a high ceiling. I want to get a pickup to capture the natural bass sound for both hearing myself live and a little home recording.

Well, the first thing to remember is that, unlike bass guitar, what you're amplifying is the acoustic sound of the instrument. So if you're getting a thin, weak sound lacking in fundamental punch acoustically, you're only going to get a louder thin, weak sound that lacks fundamental punch. We all have struggled with learning to get a big projecting sound out of the instrument but, please take it from my personal experience, you don't get that by slapping on a pickup and turning up an amp. There's a lot that goes on in getting a sound out of a double bass and it helps to have help. Are you studying with anyone (the instrument, not music)? Because getting a good foundation in physical approach will make getting to the place and sound you want a much shorter trip than trying to work it out on your own.

I am making some assumptions here, you don't say what kind of jams but "everyone can hear you" playing unamplified currently, likely bluegrass or Americana? Anybody else using amplification?

 

[MountainMikeCS]

Well, the first thing to remember is that, unlike bass guitar, what you're amplifying is the acoustic sound of the instrument. So if you're getting a thin, weak sound lacking in fundamental punch acoustically, you're only going to get a louder thin, weak sound that lacks fundamental punch. We all have struggled with learning to get a big projecting sound out of the instrument but, please take it from my personal experience, you don't get that by slapping on a pickup and turning up an amp. There's a lot that goes on in getting a sound out of a double bass and it helps to have help. Are you studying with anyone (the instrument, not music)? Because getting a good foundation in physical approach will make getting to the place and sound you want a much shorter trip than trying to work it out on your own.

I am making some assumptions here, you don't say what kind of jams but "everyone can hear you" playing unamplified currently, likely bluegrass or Americana? Anybody else using amplification?

Hello -

I have studied with someone for about 6 months about 5 years ago - my wife rented a nice upright for me for my 50th but our daughter was just too young to play it in the house (according to my wife). I worked mostly on technique - getting a nice, clear, fat sound is key for me before I do anything else. I'm looking to start studying again if I can find the time.

Our jams usually take place at a local civic center where, if we are inside I can't hear myself since the bass sound simply disappears into the rafters of the large structure we are in - and the cement floor doesn't help either. When playing electric in that environment I need to stand about 8 or more feet in front of the amp to hear it as well. But, I swapped with the drummer and once you are out in front of the bass you can hear it fine. Everyone says they hear me fine - I just can't hear it unless I lean far over the front of it while I'm playing. The acoustics in that room are too big and echoey - its all new construction, cement floor, high cathedral ceiling and hardly and wood anywhere.

 

[MountainMikeCS]

I looked a little further online - I like the sound of the Upton Revolution Solo - which happens to be a piezo-style pickup, which shows how little I know about those.

A nice video is here:

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Hello -

I have studied with someone for about 6 months about 5 years ago - my wife rented a nice upright for me for my 50th but our daughter was just too young to play it in the house (according to my wife). I worked mostly on technique - getting a nice, clear, fat sound is key for me before I do anything else. I'm looking to start studying again if I can find the time.

Our jams usually take place at a local civic center where, if we are inside I can't hear myself since the bass sound simply disappears into the rafters of the large structure we are in - and the cement floor doesn't help either. When playing electric in that environment I need to stand about 8 or more feet in front of the amp to hear it as well. But, I swapped with the drummer and once you are out in front of the bass you can hear it fine. Everyone says they hear me fine - I just can't hear it unless I lean far over the front of it while I'm playing. The acoustics in that room are too big and echoey - its all new construction, cement floor, high cathedral ceiling and hardly and wood anywhere.

Where does everyone set up in the room? In the center, along a wall? If you can, find a corner in the room and stand so that the bass is (visually) divided in half by the corner edge. Sort of the opposite of standing your bass up in the corner, you have your (and the bass's) back to it, rather than putting the bridge side into it. That will give you more projection out front and give you a little "monitor" from the sound coming off the back bouncing out into the room past you.

 

[Don Hergert]

I'm a Vic's Pickups Model C (bridge wing and fingerboard, stereo) user and I can attest to Vic's quality and service. It's a really full sounding pickup system on my DB. I feed its stereo signal into a mounted K&K dual channel pro ST preamp for blending and tone control. Usually I'll use this system for loud gigs.

I also have a mounted Sennheiser e604 dynamic mic that sounds great. I feed it clear to my amp or to a FOH, usually for sensitive volume gigs.

I used them both yesterday, both feeding into an outdoor FOH being mixed by the event's sound guy, and the bass sounded wonderful. Probably a little overkill for a sensitive volume gig but the sound guy wanted to experiment with it.

Some genre have a low tolerance for piezos because they often sound electronic. Mics can work well in those situations but they are prone to feedback with loud volume.

However you collect your sound, I can't say enough good things about using wireless TX/RC units with your double bass. Having no cables attached to a DB is an amazingly freeing thing!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

What almost always work is a bridge wing piezo with a high impedance preamp like the HPFpre.
You need to take care to mount it in the bridge wing with just as much pressure that it won‘t fall out by itself. Either you need to open up the wing and plan it very carefully as a light fine file stroke can make the difference.
The single sensor ones may need a soundpost adjustment to get low and high notes equally well, the double sensor ones don‘t but may sound a bit unnatural due to phasing from the two different sensor positions.

Contact mics work well for basses that sound good acoustically but very seldom for ply basses. If it gets loud, they may get to their limit before feedback. And placing the contact mic may need time for a natural sound.

Air mics are a bit easier to place but are mostly useful for FOH, not for your stage amp.

Rule of thumb:
The more away from the strings the more natural the sound but the higher the feedback risk.
A good position is in the bridge leg or adjuster, under the bridge leg has a bit less punch but better with the bow, closer to the strings is more electric and nasal and loud with the bow.

There is nothing optimal. Begin with one of the better cheap piezos and a high impedance buffer/preamp. F you don’t want to mount it yourself ask a luthier to do it, watch and ask, so you can do it yourself next time.

 

[Earl]

Do you mean DPA 4099? That's a microphone. It won't work well through a bass amp in general.

The KNA's are just a bridge wing piezo pickups as far as I know. There are some review threads here from users.

Plugging straight into the amp without a dedicated preamp for piezos/upright will bring limited results.

KNA also makes a contact piezo pickup and this may be what he is referring to.

 

[Francois Blais]

KNA (KNA pickups) is making contact pickups for a wide variety of instruments.

I looked a little further online - I like the sound of the Upton Revolution Solo - which happens to be a piezo-style pickup, which shows how little I know about those.

Getting that pickup doesn’t ensure you’ll sound the same way, unfortunately.
The fitting is critical for most wing mounted pickups.
You may have to try a few to find the one that works best for you.
But as Ed stated earlier, if you don’t have a good acoustic tone, you’ll just amplify that.
Better work on sounding good first.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I’ve used a ton of pickups, and I if you’re going to go with a bridge wing style piezo I think the Vic’s Model B (single element) is the best value out there. About 1/3 the price of the bass max and very similar performance, in my experience. One of my friends had a KNA on his bass and it sounded good, but I’m not sure it’s worth double the cost of the Model B. Wasn’t able to A/B the pickups on that bass though. The revolution solo has its fans but I understand it needs a pretty careful installation and the aforementioned ones are easily self installed, if that’s important to you. It’s also 4 times the cost of the Vic’s for the same basic design.

A preamp with a high input impedance, HPF, and phase reverse really helps with any piezo I’ve used. The $50-ish Fdeck HPF-pre has always helped my DB “play nice” with bass amps that are designed for magnetic pickups.

I agree with the posters above that what will ultimately get you the best amplified sound on DB is your physical technique and getting a good acoustic sound. While you are working on that I wouldn’t personally break the bank on an expensive pickup. For about $100 you can get a Vic’s and an Fdeck, which will get you amped up as you build your preferences.

 

[Ric Vice]

I looked a little further online - I like the sound of the Upton Revolution Solo - which happens to be a piezo-style pickup, which shows how little I know about those.

I owned one. It’s a bit easier to install because the piezo element is embedded in a wooden block.
The sound on my bass was a little warmer than the Underwood (which has brass surrounding the piezo).
It stays in place better (on my bass) than the brass ones do. I like the Realist Lifeline for it’s simplicity, sound
and ease of installation. The Vic’s is a really economical solution. Clearly the most affordable.

 

[shepdave]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been using a Revolution Solo on my Upton Bostonian bass for months without any problems. Nice transparent sound, easy to install. The bass and pickup are about 13 months old, used relatively lightly in that time.

Last night, in the middle of a musical for which I was playing the pit, the pickup suddenly crapped out on me. It started quacking and cracking when I played an open-string A. When I tried to adjust its placement, it sent a huge, loud “loose-wire” hum into my amp in the middle of a song. I had to turn off my AI SL amp and go acoustic for the rest of the first act, which meant I was barely heard. The improvised microphone solution I used for Act II was a poor solution.

I am looking for alternatives. I ordered a Vic’s Model B this morning to keep in my gig bag as a backup.

A very embarrassing and distressing moment indeed.

 

[Don Hergert]

Sorry to hear about your gig disaster... No fun.

I'd suggest trying out the Vic's before you relegate it to the backup bag. Nice thing about the mono-output dual-piezo design Model B is that you probably won't absolutely have to use a pre-amp. That means one less component to potentially fail unexpectedly.

If you do end up liking it, getting another Model B as a backup is a great and inexpensive option.

As mentioned earlier, I use a Model C, and I carry a brand new spare Model C as a backup, plus I carry a spare pre-amp. And lots of spare batteries.

 

[BlueRock]

What a great time to be a bass player. My first pickup was a Polytone got after hearing Ray Brown with one. Something must have been seriously defective though because I never sounded anything like him with it.

What about something used you won't take a big loss on when it turns out not to be one that works great on your bass?

 

[james condino]

I've easily spent more than $1000 on pickups; currently I have 7 on hand at the shop. While they represent the spectrum of voice, tone, & volume, none work perfect for all situations, and most fail miserably regularly. 'Special nod of disapproval to one popular extremely fragile, overpriced piece of junk...

Unquestionably, the Vic's Model B is the best $50 I've ever spent.

 

[MountainMikeCS]

I just realized that I haven't updated this in a while! Sorry!

I ended up going with a KNA DB-1 piezo pickup. It works great for me - gives me a solid tone when amplified with pizzicato and it picks up arco very nicely as well. And it only costs $100. Like everything else with starting out - I'll use learning to play my DB well enough as the goal before I invest in an even better pickup - if I need to.

For a preamp I pickup up a Fishman platinum for $100. This works wonderfully. It doesn't have a limiter, but I feed this through a compressor before my amp so I'm covered. The limiter would have been nice if I could have found the better Fishman Platinum Pro for a little cheaper. Again - I'll make myself earn it.

Moving on to amplification - I finally settled on a Markbass 800 tube bass head, and I picked up a new GK Neo 212 cab that is just light enough to move around easily. The head includes two inputs - the 1/4 for my electric bass and mic jack input with an optional power switch I can use to power the Fishman Platinum, which has 48v support built in and which I successfully tested with my USB audio interface.

Before settling on the Markbass Tube I tried two other bass heads - an Aguilar 350 Tone Hammer - not bad but not great. A little limited tonally but I liked the sound I heard online. I wasn't able to get a solid sound with the DB but I'll keep on trying. I might keep it as a backup. I also tried a MarkBass vintage but this died on me the second time I used it and it didn't have the second input. The sound was good for electric bass but wasn't so wonderful for DB.

The Markbass tube is now on the way. I'll try to record some samples and post here once I get my levels set the way I like them.

Thanks for all your help folks!

Mike

 

[MountainMikeCS]

Update: I returned the Markbass 800 Tube head today. I picked up one used from Musician's Friend - it has an extremely loud hiss when you turn the VLE off or anywhere left of 12 o'clock - and a very loud fan. This is the second Markbass head I've returned to Musician's friend in the past 2 weeks - I picked up the Markbass Vintage head two weeks ago - loved the sound - but it died out after playing for the first 30 minutes. I couldn't get it to come back on for more than a few seconds after that. This was a "floor model" so it could have been well-abused before I got it but based on the comments about reliability of Markbass equipment I'm going to try something else next.

I'm leaning towards a GK - again, another head in short supply around my area so I'll need to buy sight unseen but man do they sound good online with some good headphones.

Does anyone use a GK and if so, do you use something relatively new I could pick up with a decent warranty, as there is little around here I can try before I buy so I'm leaning towards investing the extra money. If it was just for electric bass I'd pick up one of the new Fusion series but since I'm doubling now I think something that sounds more like the old 200MB combos everyone demos on Youtube would be nice.