I get you. Getting into other positions can help trick your head into thinking about things differently.
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Looking for good exercises for horizontal movement
- Thread starter lordradish
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I get you. Getting into other positions can help trick your head into thinking about things differently.
It does, thanks. One thing I need to do more of is learn jazz melodies, because the times I have, I noticed that they force me to think of ways of execution that I normally wouldn't do, and they just make my hands play patterns I normally wouldn't.
Use open strings as stepping stones to position shifts. Playing a two octave F major scale on a four string is a good exercise.
I was learning the opening riff to “Message in a Bottle” the other day, great exercise. 1-5-9 on top of four different chords (fortunately one is A) at a fast tempo will get your hand moving.
I don’t believe in position shifts for the sake of position shifts, however. Plenty of note choices, especially on a five or sixer, at any one position. I like to play standard ‘box’ patterns starting with the pinky. Makes ya think a bit more about playing the note, rather than just repeating a pattern.
I was learning the opening riff to “Message in a Bottle” the other day, great exercise. 1-5-9 on top of four different chords (fortunately one is A) at a fast tempo will get your hand moving.
I don’t believe in position shifts for the sake of position shifts, however. Plenty of note choices, especially on a five or sixer, at any one position. I like to play standard ‘box’ patterns starting with the pinky. Makes ya think a bit more about playing the note, rather than just repeating a pattern.
- Sep 4, 2010
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As an improviser, shifting in order to be able to move around the neck freely is a great topic I have been interested in for a while.
* I would seek out a good jazz/classical db player and take a lesson or 2 on this topic- because of the fingerboard size they have to shift a lot, so they tend to have well-developed techniques for that (even if the fingerings are different)
* There are 2 kinds of shifts: for the ones we know from rock and blues, the shift is supposed to be heard, as an expressive means. The key with shifting for the purpose of freely moving around the neck is that you do NOT hear the shift, you are supposed to make it sound like any other note in a given melodic/scalar pattern. A different technique, essentially.
* deciding whether you shift with the same finger, or jump, say, index to middle , or middle to index, requires experimentation. Basically the best way IMO to think about it, is to think ahead which finger you want to land on for the next note/phrase to play. And by the way, I find shifting from, say, pinky to index when moving up an interval is actually to be the easiest one to get right.
*edit: a good reason to shift is tonal quality. Your e on the 12th fret e-string does not sound the same as the same pitch on the 2nd fret d string. The same line played over one string tends to have a more 'lyrical' quality than if played 'in the box'. (I am not saying one is better than the other)
Good luck!
* I would seek out a good jazz/classical db player and take a lesson or 2 on this topic- because of the fingerboard size they have to shift a lot, so they tend to have well-developed techniques for that (even if the fingerings are different)
* There are 2 kinds of shifts: for the ones we know from rock and blues, the shift is supposed to be heard, as an expressive means. The key with shifting for the purpose of freely moving around the neck is that you do NOT hear the shift, you are supposed to make it sound like any other note in a given melodic/scalar pattern. A different technique, essentially.
* deciding whether you shift with the same finger, or jump, say, index to middle , or middle to index, requires experimentation. Basically the best way IMO to think about it, is to think ahead which finger you want to land on for the next note/phrase to play. And by the way, I find shifting from, say, pinky to index when moving up an interval is actually to be the easiest one to get right.
*edit: a good reason to shift is tonal quality. Your e on the 12th fret e-string does not sound the same as the same pitch on the 2nd fret d string. The same line played over one string tends to have a more 'lyrical' quality than if played 'in the box'. (I am not saying one is better than the other)
Good luck!
You need to change perspective.
When Gary Willis is talking about moving around, it's to create an interesting sound with a lot of variety. I haven't studied a lot of his work, but I did watch one of his masterclass videos where he was talking about pentatonics. If you just play a root position pentatonic scale it does not sound great and soon become tiresome if the chord does not change. The concept he covered in the video is to use the minor pentatonic scales based on the 2nd, 6th, and 3rd (10th) scale degree so you have a wide variety of sounds and create harmonic tension without thinking too much. Basically all of these pentatonic scales fit into Dorian mode when you are playing in a Major key, so every note is diatonic. I'll post a keyboard video below that covers the idea a bit more thoroughly.
You were taught to shift as little as possible, which is basically economy of movement; I.E. if you have a written out line, you find the most efficient way to play it.
It should be noted that these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. The Gary Willis video does not show him making huge disconnected jumps up and down the neck. Instead he uses economy of motion and moves just enough to get to the next pentatonic box he plans to use.
Here is the keyboard video; the pentatonic part starts around 4:47:
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I'm having similar issue and I noticed slight improvement in the last couple of months. Here's what I'm focusing on at the time:
1. I sight read more, but I try not to play in the lower areas of the neck where I'm more comfortable sight reading.
2. I try to limit myself with certain parameters:
- play a song, segment of a song, a cadence, whatever - but play so that the 4 bars are in the position 0-5, the next 4 bars in the position 6-10, next 4 bars 11-15 and so on.
- maybe just playing first 2 bars on the A and E string, second 4 bars on the A and D string and so on. These are just random ideas - just find out something that gives you problem.
- try mixing things up - let's say I want to practice the triad pairs over a D minor 7 chord. So I take the F and G major triads and play F root position, G root position, F 1st inversion, G 1st inversion, F 2nd inversion, G 2nd inversion. When reach the end of the exercise I have plenty of options for the other direction:
- change the key: G minor on the way down which would give you Bb and C major triads
- change type of chord: D major 7 on the way down, which would give me B minor and C# minor triads.
What I would do next is change the pattern I was using for the triads - using either 2 or 3 strings.
I also try to structure the exercises in a way that forces me away from using the root notes of chords. Let's say I practice a walking bass over a standard and I limit myself to chord tones only, but in bars 1, 3, 5 and 7 the first note is always going to be the 3d of the cord and in bars 2, 4, 6, and 8 the first note is always going to be the 5th.
So what I end up with is often not most musical, but I'm having success using this methods.
I think it really comes down to constantly challenging and also limiting yourself.
1. I sight read more, but I try not to play in the lower areas of the neck where I'm more comfortable sight reading.
2. I try to limit myself with certain parameters:
- play a song, segment of a song, a cadence, whatever - but play so that the 4 bars are in the position 0-5, the next 4 bars in the position 6-10, next 4 bars 11-15 and so on.
- maybe just playing first 2 bars on the A and E string, second 4 bars on the A and D string and so on. These are just random ideas - just find out something that gives you problem.
- try mixing things up - let's say I want to practice the triad pairs over a D minor 7 chord. So I take the F and G major triads and play F root position, G root position, F 1st inversion, G 1st inversion, F 2nd inversion, G 2nd inversion. When reach the end of the exercise I have plenty of options for the other direction:
- change the key: G minor on the way down which would give you Bb and C major triads
- change type of chord: D major 7 on the way down, which would give me B minor and C# minor triads.
What I would do next is change the pattern I was using for the triads - using either 2 or 3 strings.
I also try to structure the exercises in a way that forces me away from using the root notes of chords. Let's say I practice a walking bass over a standard and I limit myself to chord tones only, but in bars 1, 3, 5 and 7 the first note is always going to be the 3d of the cord and in bars 2, 4, 6, and 8 the first note is always going to be the 5th.
So what I end up with is often not most musical, but I'm having success using this methods.
I think it really comes down to constantly challenging and also limiting yourself.
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Do you understand the concept of chord inversions. Root position 1357, 1st inversion 3571, second inversion 5713, third inversion 7135. If so, you should practice playing these on your bass until you know them inside and out. You could think of these as box shapes on the fret board.
Do the same with the major and minor pentatonic scales. Minor: 13457, 34571, 45713, 57134, 71345. Major: 12356, 23561, 35612, 56123, 61235. Note if you are playing relative Maj/Min pentatonic scales you are using the same notes, but the scale degrees change. For example: [C Major 12356 (C,B,E,G,A)] and [A Minor 34571 (C,B,E,G,A)]. In other words C Major and A Minor share the same notes.
I believe the type of shift Gary Willis is describing is essentially equivalent to moving up and down the neck to play chords or arpeggiated lines in different inversions.
One thing he suggest is basically like playing a scale in thirds. Here is the ascending scale degrees in thirds: 132435465761721
Basically when you are playing ascending arppegiated chord tones you make two jumps up to chord tones, and then you jump back one. For example, 135357571713 etc.
For descending, you reverse the patterns.
Shifting comes under the area of "fingering" that I have studied pretty intensely for the last two years, while studying technically challenging works not written for the bass or double bass with a college instructor. Most of what I have learned is not the norm for the TB folks here. Most advanced players default to a fingering that makes them sound like a guitarist. If you want to sound closer to sax or trumpet, the fingering really needs a rethinking - which is where I am at.
There are multiple ways to finger a passage. Each will depend on whether you are a 3,4 or 5 fret reach player and each choice for a passage has its' pros and cons. So be wary if anybody preaches "the one and only way".
One important thing is to make sure your fingering/shifting serves the phrasing.
For 16th 2+ octave scales, I favor a mix of horizontal and vertical movement. It depends on the context, but I try not to split groups of 16ths.
Happy Playing
There are multiple ways to finger a passage. Each will depend on whether you are a 3,4 or 5 fret reach player and each choice for a passage has its' pros and cons. So be wary if anybody preaches "the one and only way".
One important thing is to make sure your fingering/shifting serves the phrasing.
For 16th 2+ octave scales, I favor a mix of horizontal and vertical movement. It depends on the context, but I try not to split groups of 16ths.
Happy Playing
I do get that, and one of the things I've been doing is playing the scale inversions. Taking a while. Thanks.
Very interested in this. I have always shifted based on timbral quality and of course to reach a note that I could reach in the current position. In the past few years I have started shifting more because it often just sounds better to stay on the same string, for both phrasing and consistency of tone.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on fingerings that depart from the normal guitaristic sound.
The Gary Willis video I referenced above (actually excerpted from Scott's Bass Lessons):
You can draw some harmonic misconceptions from the video because he is just playing over D minor. The way he explains it is fine if you are playing smooth jazz and grooving over a D minor chord for an extended time. But if you are playing a jazz standard or other tonal music, I believe the concept he is covering relates more to C major where you would use these ideas over a ii V I chord pattern.
The piano video I linked shows how the pentatonic chords and Dorian mode relate to the Maj key a bit more clearly. Basically D, A, and E pentatonic minor are all diatonic to C Major. If you continue the cycle of 5ths and play B pentantonic minor (BDEF#A) you will note, you are stepping outside the key signature with the F#. The keyboard video describes how this can be used to solo over the I chord (C Maj).
Does this relate to phrasing? Please explain a bit more as I am a bit of a loss how fingering could make you sound closer to a sax or trumpet. To me sax and trumpet tend to play totally different note patterns, so if you want to sound more a like a sax or trumpet you have build melodic lines more like a trumpet or sax player. The distinction I am trying to make is fingering doesn't change the notes or melody, although it does have some impact on the overall sound.
Well the approach of Joe is based on the Cm7 chord and over posing the chords that are created over each one of chord tones basically playing with the extensions of the chord and using diatonic approaching notes to arrive to the chord tones. Different than scale sequencing.
You answered your own question . Different note choices will lead you to different fingering patterns, esp with trumpet .
Charlie Parker "ornithology". Be prepared to for an amazing jouney.
Thank you and Smeet for the intelligent questions.
Charlie Christian, one of the first great jazz guitar players got his mojo from trying to sound like horn players , esp. Lester Young. He was the Jimi Hendrix of the early 1940s, gone way too early at 23 from TB. Charlies fingering patterns are worth studying, because was and is an original. Wes Montgomery flipped when he heard Charlies playing and immediately went out and bought $$$ guitar and amp and devoted a year to learning to play every Charlie solo.
Learning to play Solo Flight on bass will give you ideas outside the box.
