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Looper pedals in FX Loop?

J

Jazzfanatic

Jun 18, 2014
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#1
Anyone else run their looper pedals in the effects loop?

I'm trying out a Ditto + in my effects loop, but the playback seems really low volume. It definitely doesn't match the output level of my amp. Is there a way to remedy this other than just cranking up the playback volume?
 
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#2
Jazzfanatic said:
Anyone else run their looper pedals in the effects loop?

I'm trying out a Ditto + in my effects loop, but the playback seems really low volume. It definitely doesn't match the output level of my amp. Is there a way to remedy this other than just cranking up the playback volume?
Click to expand...
Most effects loops are designed to run at a higher signal voltage than effects pedals usually deliver, so it's likely that the looper is taking a hot signal and just doing its best to send out a weaker one. What amp and looper are we talking about here?

Edit: I can't read, what amp are we talking about here?
 
#4
The listed specs on the LM3 effects return show a relatively low impedance (33kohm vs 500kohm at the main input), and the max voltage input on the effects return is a lot lower than the effects send max voltage for a reason that I'm too dumb to be certain of.

I couldn't find any specs on the ditto+.

You can try to just crank the repeats, but I think you'd be better off just running the looper in front.
 
#5
cheapbasslovin said:
The listed specs on the LM3 effects return show a relatively low impedance (33kohm vs 500kohm at the main input), and the max voltage input on the effects return is a lot lower than the effects send max voltage for a reason that I'm too dumb to be certain of.

I couldn't find any specs on the ditto+.

You can try to just crank the repeats, but I think you'd be better off just running the looper in front.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I don't understand what all that means. I will definitely try to run it out of the loop and see what happens. I have tried running other things in this effect loop before and I also noticed kind of a thin sound.
 
#6
Jazzfanatic said:
Sorry, I don't understand what all that means. I will definitely try to run it out of the loop and see what happens. I have tried running other things in this effect loop before and I also noticed kind of a thin sound.
Click to expand...
If the impedance is too low, you can load down the output of the thing that is sending it a signal and degrade its signal. If the Ditto has too high an output impedance that could cause some signal loss. I don't know if that's what's happening, but it's a possibility.

I don't know exactly what the voltage discrepancy means. I would have expected them to be the same, but I'm not an engineer so I expect there's a good reason for that choice.
 
#7
cheapbasslovin said:
If the impedance is too low, you can load down the output of the thing that is sending it a signal and degrade its signal. If the Ditto has too high an output impedance that could cause some signal loss. I don't know if that's what's happening, but it's a possibility.

I don't know exactly what the voltage discrepancy means. I would have expected them to be the same, but I'm not an engineer so I expect there's a good reason for that choice.
Click to expand...
So I tested in right in front of my amp and it is only marginally better. I see some other threads about this same problem. I may just have faulty unit.
 
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#9
cheapbasslovin said:
The listed specs on the LM3 effects return show a relatively low impedance (33kohm vs 500kohm at the main input), and the max voltage input on the effects return is a lot lower than the effects send max voltage for a reason that I'm too dumb to be certain of.

I couldn't find any specs on the ditto+.

You can try to just crank the repeats, but I think you'd be better off just running the looper in front.
Click to expand...

I did more testing tonight and it would seem that there is something going on with the effects loop on this amp that I don't understand. When I run the looper in front, there is no problem and I'm getting unity volume more or less. If I record through the effects loop and then move the ditto in front of the amp, the playback volume is normal. So it seems like the ditto is recording the signal fine, but the playback is getting degraded?

Another odd thing I have noticed is when I I have the send and return bridged, there is a significant increase in my output volume. So much that it will even start clipping my signal. Do you know why this would happen?

I've emailed both Markbass and TC electronics to see if I can get more information on the fx loop and the output impedance of the ditto+.
 
#11
Jazzfanatic said:
I did more testing tonight and it would seem that there is something going on with the effects loop on this amp that I don't understand. When I run the looper in front, there is no problem and I'm getting unity volume more or less. If I record through the effects loop and then move the ditto in front of the amp, the playback volume is normal. So it seems like the ditto is recording the signal fine, but the playback is getting degraded?

Another odd thing I have noticed is when I I have the send and return bridged, there is a significant increase in my output volume. So much that it will even start clipping my signal. Do you know why this would happen?

I've emailed both Markbass and TC electronics to see if I can get more information on the fx loop and the output impedance of the ditto+.
Click to expand...

I have ideas, but I don't KNOW. Effects send has a max p-p voltage of 20v and the return is 10v. I'm guessing there's some internal circuitry that normalizes this discrepancy and that goes away when you jumper out the loop.

I have to agree with Mosfed, is there a real need to put the looper in the loop? When I tried to use an effects loop 100 years ago it was a major pain (extra cables, longer setup time, etc.) for no real benefit.
 
#12
Jazzfanatic said:
I did more testing tonight and it would seem that there is something going on with the effects loop on this amp that I don't understand.
Click to expand...
Most effects loops are designed for rack-mount effects, which use a "line level" signal instead of an "instrument level" signal like pedals.

Some pedal effects work on some effects loops, others don't. My guitar amp has a switch that allows me to set the effects loop level for either line or instrument settings, but most effects loops don't have that feature.

Pairing the Ditto+ with a good, clean signal booster might do the trick if you want to run the pedal in your effects loop.
 
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#14
cheapbasslovin said:
I have to agree with Mosfed, is there a real need to put the looper in the loop? When I tried to use an effects loop 100 years ago it was a major pain (extra cables, longer setup time, etc.) for no real benefit.
Click to expand...
I thought it would be best to have the looper recording post eq rather than in front of the preamp. It would seem you are correct, this is a major pain. Since I only plan to use the looper for practice I guess it really doesn't matter. I'm just the kind of person that wants to understand why things don't work the way I expect, especially with expensive gear.
 
#15
Jazzfanatic said:
I thought it would be best to have the looper recording post eq rather than in front of the preamp.
Click to expand...

While there are no laws about how stuff should be plugged in, and you should absolutely route stuff the way that works for you, I'd agree it does make sense to have it in the effects loop.

Broadly you would (I expect) want to loop the coloured sound rather than colouring the looped sound.
 
#16
cheapbasslovin said:
I have ideas, but I don't KNOW. Effects send has a max p-p voltage of 20v and the return is 10v. I'm guessing there's some internal circuitry that normalizes this discrepancy and that goes away when you jumper out the loop.

I have to agree with Mosfed, is there a real need to put the looper in the loop? When I tried to use an effects loop 100 years ago it was a major pain (extra cables, longer setup time, etc.) for no real benefit.
Click to expand...
Since you are invested in this I though you might like to hear the response from Mark Bass:

"The send/return is in parallel by default and it's pre EQ in the chain, this is the reason because you're getting low level when you're recording the loop via send/return as well as for the volume increase when send and return are bridged."

This seems to go against everything I've read about effects loops and reasons for using them. I'm not even sure what the MB effects loop would be used for now?
"
 
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#17
Jazzfanatic said:
Since you are invested in this I though you might like to hear the response from Mark Bass:

"The send/return is in parallel by default and it's pre EQ in the chain, this is the reason because you're getting low level when you're recording the loop via send/return as well as for the volume:laugh::laugh: increase when send and return are bridged."

This seems to go against everything I've read about effects loops and reasons for using them. I'm not even sure what the MB effects loop would be used for now?
"
Click to expand...
Parallel!:facepalm::laugh::laugh::laugh:

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

I guess use it for anything that needs a clean blend. DS-1 incoming.
 

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