Loud stage and bass EQ too deep to articulate notes... HELP! :)

[ThisBass]

Hello,

I'd like to think I've done my due diligence trying to find answers to this but haven't really found it all in the same context.

The bars I play are such that the only thing in our PA and monitors is vocals. My cab is the bass for the room, and such is loud on stage. It has to be. I'm pumping 2000 watts into a Fearless F215.

So two things I deal with:

1) I am always pushed up as close to the back wall as possible, and usually in a corner. So with the boundary reinforcement, if I want my bass to be deep in the crowd, then it has to be soooo deep on stage that I can barely hear articulation between notes. I'm saying I can almost move 2 or 3 steps up or down and it basically sounds like the same pitch. If I take the EQ up to where it sounds good to me, it sounds like high pitch farts in the crowd.

2) It's REALLY freaking loud. Again, it has to be. I'm filling the entire room from my rig.

So... I would be the happiest man on the planet if I could get my on-stage bass quieter and raised up in tone so I can actually hear what I'm playing.

I tried Hearos a while back and to my memory it basically took my bass out of the equation. I couldn't make out my playing at all. This was a long time ago, however, and not at a gig where I was shoved in a corner. So I wasn't in a real world situation and may even be remembering wrong.

I don't think I can do IEMs because again the only thing in the PA is vocals.

I make due.. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm able to play my gigs. I just basically play with mush bass and ignore it, and have ringing ears until the next day.

Thoughts?

Yes sir,
unless you talk something about boundaries it's nearly impossible to give good advice.
My last (in the meanwhile pretty gone) project died because of two guitar players running 412 cabs with lots of low frequency content. And unfortunatelly the players technique was a bit of begiiners like washy sounding so I had no chance to cope with noobs like that. My gear is state of the art but, you can't cope with a bomb unless you have something like a nuclear thing in your bag.

 

[smeet]

The problem might be related to the fact that you are playing through a full range cabinet. Meaning, you are getting way more true low end than a traditional bass cabinet would generate. Try the HPF, iand boost your mids a bit, it will probably make the FOH sound better also. We rarely need as much low end as we think we do.

 

[ThisBass]

it would be nice to know something about the audio program. Blue grass is something different to death metal?

 

[Noshtero]

To answer recent questions. I run a low cutoff at 40. I'm playing classic and country rock. I messed with boosting the mids more than usual and it did help quite a bit. Again, this is in our rehearsel space where I'm not shoved in the corner of a stage. It kind of sucks that I get one shot to mess with things at the beginning of each gig. I can't exactly get there early and tweak my amp running full show volume. I think between earplugs and some manner of mid-heavy monitor I may find a solution. I wonder if I really could just stick the cab somewhere else. I don't really want it right in front of the stage blasting everyone. Someone had mentioned having it in front of me instead of directly behind me. I'll have to mess around with it.

 

[smeet]

It might sound excessive, but I'd try moving your low cutoff up to 50Hz and see how that works. The overall feeling of sheer power will be less, but then you can turn up your volume a bit, which should give you as much impact but more intelligibility. At loud gig volumes, the low end starts to sound much louder than at lower levels.

 

[walterw]

If I'm plugging my instrument into my amp head (usually a TH500 on top of a Bergantino pair), how does a signal get to my combo amp, or vice versa?

wait, what's the point of the combo amp?

if you're already dragging out a big bass rig, there's no reason to drag out another bass rig! use one rig, place it and EQ it to where you can hear yourself (if you can't, sell it and get one that does the job), done.

 

[AMp'D.2play]

wait, what's the point of the combo amp?

Don't wish to turn this into a full-blown thread hijack, but as referenced in post #3 - the primary bass rig would be positioned in front of me to project as loudly as needed into the house (we play mostly small to medium-sized bars that frequently don't have their own FOH). The combo would be behind or alongside me, and be used as a stage monitor. This way I can hear what I'm playing without having a ton of volume hitting my ears, or my rear end for that matter if I'm standing in front of my cabs.

I'd never given any thought to running an XLR betw/ the 2.

 

[BurningSkies]

I run 2 Greenboy 15's and an amp that's a bit bigger than yours and often also use my rig for FOH and backline at the same time. My suggestions:

-HPF.
-Get out of the corner and away from a wall if you can. Even if you're a bit forward of the drummer.
-Add mids to your sound. Even if you don't love what you're hearing close up.
-Get out in the room and listen to how your bass tone is in the FOH with the rest of the band playing.
-If you're using a PA for mostly vocals and stuff 'north' of the low mids, roll off the stuff below that on your board so you're not swamping the room with boomy washy stuff.

 

[Downunderwonder]

You're still alive then. The size of bar that your drummer doesn't feel a need for his subs, crammed stage, I suspect you are simply all too loud and subs will only complicate the mess until everything is reined in.

The effective difference between your rig blasting from the stage front, and blasting from 6ft back against the wall, is quite small unless you are moshing. I bet your vocals are blasting but still hard to hear, if not buried under guitars.

I never met a vocal PA that would hold up to your monster rig at full noise. How many are you playing to?

Any chance you can get guitars to use their amps as monitors aimed squarely at their own heads and mic them?

A well tuned kickdrum, not overstuffed, and well kicked, it's a mighty thing. Stay under it out front and you'll be the best sounding country rock outfit in ten counties.

To answer recent questions. I run a low cutoff at 40. I'm playing classic and country rock. I messed with boosting the mids more than usual and it did help quite a bit. Again, this is in our rehearsel space where I'm not shoved in the corner of a stage. It kind of sucks that I get one shot to mess with things at the beginning of each gig. I can't exactly get there early and tweak my amp running full show volume. I think between earplugs and some manner of mid-heavy monitor I may find a solution. I wonder if I really could just stick the cab somewhere else. I don't really want it right in front of the stage blasting everyone. Someone had mentioned having it in front of me instead of directly behind me. I'll have to mess around with it.

 

[walterw]

Don't wish to turn this into a full-blown thread hijack, but as referenced in post #3 - the primary bass rig would be positioned in front of me to project as loudly as needed into the house (we play mostly small to medium-sized bars that frequently don't have their own FOH). The combo would be behind or alongside me, and be used as a stage monitor.

here again, trying to fake front PA with the bass rig is usually a recipe for s**tty sound!

if there's no PA to put the kick drum in, then a crushing bass rig placed out front will just drown the drummer and wreck the mix; if there is enough PA to carry the kick drum, then the bass should be in it too, and all you want is stage volume from your rig.

in either case, the bass rig needs to be behind you and as loud as the drums but no louder.

 

[jimfist]

here again, trying to fake front PA with the bass rig is usually a recipe for s**tty sound!

if there's no PA to put the kick drum in, then a crushing bass rig placed out front will just drown the drummer and wreck the mix; if there is enough PA to carry the kick drum, then the bass should be in it too, and all you want is stage volume from your rig.

in either case, the bass rig needs to be behind you and as loud as the drums but no louder.

Well, I didn't mean to open a can of worms with the suggestion of placing your bass cab in FOH position. It is a ghetto solution, no doubt, but one that seemed appropriate given my interpretation and sensibilities with respect to the situation. I suppose given a choice, I'd sooner explore the possibilities of my suggestion rather than continue to endure the OP's stage mix problems. There are worse ideas, but there are also a few much better ideas, too.

My other suggested option was to get proper subwoofers added to the PA. I'm in 100% agreement with Walterw here. If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that given the choice between a cheap band-aid solution and a more proper but expensive/complicated solution, many people will choose the former. Honestly, though, the proper long term solution is obvious.

Short of augmenting the PA with subs enabling turning down the bass amp on stage, the solution would be for the bass amp to be set so that the overall mix to the audience is as balanced as possible. If this still results in a poor, inarticulate stage mix, then some kind of alternate stage speaker or IEM would be needed to provide the tonal clarity desired. Even a small single 10" speaker can do this well if positioned properly.

If the bass tone and volume is being driven by other factors, such as overzealous guitarists or drummer, then that's a completely different problem.