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Loud stage and bass EQ too deep to articulate notes... HELP! :)

Noshtero

Noshtero

Dec 2, 2007
538
248
Chicago, IL
#1
Hello,

I'd like to think I've done my due diligence trying to find answers to this but haven't really found it all in the same context.

The bars I play are such that the only thing in our PA and monitors is vocals. My cab is the bass for the room, and such is loud on stage. It has to be. I'm pumping 2000 watts into a Fearless F215.

So two things I deal with:

1) I am always pushed up as close to the back wall as possible, and usually in a corner. So with the boundary reinforcement, if I want my bass to be deep in the crowd, then it has to be soooo deep on stage that I can barely hear articulation between notes. I'm saying I can almost move 2 or 3 steps up or down and it basically sounds like the same pitch. If I take the EQ up to where it sounds good to me, it sounds like high pitch farts in the crowd.

2) It's REALLY freaking loud. Again, it has to be. I'm filling the entire room from my rig.

So... I would be the happiest man on the planet if I could get my on-stage bass quieter and raised up in tone so I can actually hear what I'm playing.

I tried Hearos a while back and to my memory it basically took my bass out of the equation. I couldn't make out my playing at all. This was a long time ago, however, and not at a gig where I was shoved in a corner. So I wasn't in a real world situation and may even be remembering wrong.

I don't think I can do IEMs because again the only thing in the PA is vocals.

I make due.. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm able to play my gigs. I just basically play with mush bass and ignore it, and have ringing ears until the next day.

Thoughts?
 
#3
Well, I'd suggest that you consider re-focusing the purpose of your stage rig as being for stage volume only (to make YOU happy first, and to accommodate the other band members if possible or necessary), and invest a little bit in a subwoofer system for your FOH to add some bass guitar and perhaps some kick drum. It'll make the overall sound on stage and in the audience a lot better. You can even do it with one good quality "pro-sumer" powered subwoofer, which shouldn't set you back more than $1000. Money well spent IMHO.

Another route to go, perhaps somewhat unorthodox, would be to place your fearless cab and the amp powering it in the position of the FOH (in front of you) so that it's not destroying the stage so much, and then employ a smaller, more suitable combo amp for your stage rig. Then, a few hundred $$$ would get you a single 15" or 2x10" combo that you can place more strategically on stage so that you can actually hear what you're playing at a reasonable level. Perhaps you've already got a combo rig hanging around?

Just a couple thoughts.
 
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#5
hmmm..... hmmmm...... never really considered a small rig back by me. I could crank the mids like crazy so it cuts straight through to me. I don't care about the tone since that's not what the crowd will hear.

The sub is probably out if only because it would be my investment and I wouldn't have much to do with it should the band blow up. We specifically don't share cost of equipment for just that purpose. Our lead guitar brings the board, little PA, and monitors. I'm sure he wouldn't spring for a sub.

But running my Lil'G back by me.... why that may just work.
 
#6
Noshtero said:
hmmm..... hmmmm...... never really considered a small rig back by me. I could crank the mids like crazy so it cuts straight through to me. I don't care about the tone since that's not what the crowd will hear.
Click to expand...

If you're running the Lil G as a mid-cannon onstage, then you might consider putting the Glasstone cab just behind the Fearless in the FOH stack on your side of the stage, but pointed (and tilted) back at you. That should minimize tone interference and zones of significant delay/phase interference onstage and in the room.
 
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#8

Yup, I found this out years ago. When I got the rig sounding great where I was standing on stage, it sounded like crap out in the audience. When I got it sounding great out there, it sounded like crap where I was standing.

A couple things you can do. First get some ear plugs like Downunderwonder suggested. That “ringing ears until the next day” means you’ve sustained hearing damage. It’s permanent and accumulates over time. Eventually you’ll have tinnitus or worse, and at the levels you’re playing at it won’t take more than a few years. Here’s a great little video that shows how hearing loss happens. A bit corny in places, but very informative and worth a look for any working musician.

Second, the secondary small rig others have suggested. It doesn’t have to be anything complicated. You’re mainly wanting to get the mids and highs for definition, and you can get than from a speaker with an 8-inch woofer. I use a Pedulla Club #45 monitor on a small stool in front of me for this very purpose, which puts it up higher and closer to my ears. All it needs is a small amp, like 100 watts or so, and perhaps an EQ roll out the highs. You could put these two pieces is a separate 3-space rack, with the signal fed from your main stage rig.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
Pedulla Club #45
Tobias Club #133


 
Last edited:
#9
Thanks for filling in the why of earplugs Wayne. I was posting on the run.

Ringing = irreversible damage. Rinse and repeat until you get tinnitus then deafness. Not everyone gets tinnitus but deafness plus tinnitus is a living hell.

Lucky for me I caught up on the story and started with earplugs with only a mild case of tinnitus, which is annoying enough. So I pass it on to you. My etymotics travel on my keychain.
 
#10
Noshtero said:
The bars I play are such that the only thing in our PA and monitors is vocals. My cab is the bass for the room, and such is loud on stage. It has to be. I'm pumping 2000 watts into a Fearless F215.
Click to expand...
so what about your drummer? is the kick not mic'ed either? (even if it is, no subs means not much kick out there.)

without real kick drum thump out front, crushing the room with your amp just means nobody hears the kick drum which means the mix sucks. you should be as loud as the drummer but no louder, everything else is for the PA to handle.
 
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#12
jimfist said:
Well, I'd suggest that you consider re-focusing the purpose of your stage rig as being for stage volume only (to make YOU happy first, and to accommodate the other band members if possible or necessary), and invest a little bit in a subwoofer system for your FOH to add some bass guitar and perhaps some kick drum. It'll make the overall sound on stage and in the audience a lot better. You can even do it with one good quality "pro-sumer" powered subwoofer, which shouldn't set you back more than $1000. Money well spent IMHO.

Another route to go, perhaps somewhat unorthodox, would be to place your fearless cab and the amp powering it in the position of the FOH (in front of you) so that it's not destroying the stage so much, and then employ a smaller, more suitable combo amp for your stage rig. Then, a few hundred $$$ would get you a single 15" or 2x10" combo that you can place more strategically on stage so that you can actually hear what you're playing at a reasonable level. Perhaps you've already got a combo rig hanging around?

Just a couple thoughts.
Click to expand...


Great suggestions. Another thought, add a HPF to your signal chain. Since you don't need the super low frequencies anyway, get rid of them, and it will clean up all your issues except volume. I'm scared of what's going on that you need your rig painfully loud to fill a room, though. I run an SVT/810 and fill damned near every venue I'm in without ever being uncomfortable in front of it. When I need more volume, I add another 810, and it still isn't uncomfortable.
 
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#14
Noshtero said:
our drummer has 2 18"'powered subs. Maybe it's time to man up and start shlepping them to the gig.
Click to expand...

Oh, heck yeah. Nothing worse than trying to provide full-venue coverage with backline gear. Re-think your backline and FOH / mixer EQ's as there will be glaring disparities. Sidenote: one of my rackmount pre's has a bass boost which kicks in a fixed nudge @ 100 hz. Talk about muddy and inarticulate!

Riis
 
#15
No no I think I was misunderstood. I hear it, trust me. The issue is it's such a deep mush I can't differentiate between notes. Imagine putting a pillow over your ears and standing directly in front of a massive sub. All you hear is woooof woooof woooof. You can't really tell what note it is. It all sounds like woooof woooof.

That's where people are saying maybe a second amp shooting nothing but mids and highs so I can tell what I'm playing.

it's probably also an issue of my EQ. I would love to borrow a wireless and see what stuff actually sounds like on the floor. I basically rely on recordings and band leader opinion. Maybe I'll invest in a 50' cable or something. I may not need it as deep as I have it. Like I said above, I can eq it to where I differentiate notes just fine, but then my perception is the sound on the floor lacks all low end.
 
#16
Noshtero said:
our drummer has 2 18"'powered subs. Maybe it's time to man up and start shlepping them to the gig.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Add these to the PA. That's why it's called "sound reinforcement". Add bass, drums, etc to the PA as needed to get a good, balanced mix, to the audience, and you'll be able to turn down your stage rig and give yourself a more articulate tone. Win Win all around.
 
#17
jimfist said:
Another route to go, perhaps somewhat unorthodox, would be to place your fearless cab and the amp powering it in the position of the FOH (in front of you) so that it's not destroying the stage so much, and then employ a smaller, more suitable combo amp for your stage rig.
Click to expand...

OK, this is where the "Live Sound" neophyte in me comes out. Seems like a great suggestion, and one I'd like to utilize myself. Similarly to the OP - although maybe not at that volume level - my bass rig usually isn't run through FOH, so instead my volume to the audience comes from my rig on stage, usually behind me.

If I'm plugging my instrument into my amp head (usually a TH500 on top of a Bergantino pair), how does a signal get to my combo amp, or vice versa? Do I run an XLR line from/betw the primary head & the combo? I have the room in my car, so lugging a 25ish lb combo (200w Traynor 112) wouldn't be an issue.

And, yes, I've already gone to Westones thanks to tinnitus.
 
#18
AMp'D.2play said:

OK, this is where the "Live Sound" neophyte in me comes out. Seems like a great suggestion, and one I'd like to utilize myself. Similarly to the OP - although maybe not at that volume level - my bass rig usually isn't run through FOH, so instead my volume to the audience comes from my rig on stage, usually behind me.

If I'm plugging my instrument into my amp head (usually a TH500 on top of a Bergantino pair), how does a signal get to my combo amp, or vice versa? Do I run an XLR line from/betw the primary head & the combo? I have the room in my car, so lugging a 25ish lb combo (200w Traynor 112) wouldn't be an issue.

And, yes, I've already gone to Westones thanks to tinnitus.
Click to expand...

If you're using Westones, you don't need a stage rig at all. Bass>TH500>Cabs (FOH)/XLR to board>monitor send>headphone amp>Westones>ears.

EQ bass to monitor send mid heavy so you can better hear what you're playing without distortion.
 
#20
Okay, then use the XLR out to your combo. Set the EQ on your combo to cut bass a ton, make it very clanky and mid-rangey so that combined with the bassiness of your main rig, you get a fairly balanced sound.
 

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