Lower string break angle over nut without string tree

[slapless]

I'm finding that the A string on the used bass I recently bought has insufficient downward angle above the nut. I've left the string as long as possible to get the departure point as low on the tuner as possible, to no avail - it's a nearly straight run going across the nut. Set-up is otherwise good. The bass is a mid-80's Kubicki P with a nice original neck, and so I don't feel like sticking a second string tree into the headstock (currently just one Fender-style button tree for the D & G strings). Are there any aftermarket solutions that can help that do not require instrument mods? I was looking at those fretwrap sorts of devices but am guessing that's not what they are for.

 

[202dy]

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[slapless]

Perfect! Now, does it come in gold? Thanks for tip!

 

[Volker Kirstein]

I'm finding that the A string on the used bass I recently bought has insufficient downward angle above the nut. ... Are there any aftermarket solutions that can help that do not require instrument mods? I was looking at those fretwrap sorts of devices but am guessing that's not what they are for.

I had similar issues, plus my D & G would hang on the edge of the button, so I took the button off and replaced it with a Sandberg style retainer. I know you specified no new holes, but this style retainer works very well for me.

 

[Double E]

I put the Fender stealth device on one of my basses... frankly it isn't a significant improvement and I think it may not fit well on a non-Fender tuner, especially if you have press-in bushings... it'll never work with those.

The symptoms can be dealt with a couple ways. One thing is to make sure that you use plenty of wraps on the A string to naturally increase the break angle by forcing the string to wrap all the way down the post (which you've apparently already tried as @FunkHead has pointed out below). Second, make sure the nut is cut just right for the gauge of string you are using, the slot should be snug enough not allow side-to-side movement in the string.

 

[FunkHead]

I put the Fender stealth device on one of my basses... frankly it isn't a significant improvement and I think it may not fit well on a non-Fender tuner, especially if you have press-in bushings... it'll never work with those.

The symptoms can be dealt with a couple ways. One thing is to make sure that you use plenty of wraps on the A string to naturally increase the break angle by forcing the string to wrap all the way down the post. Second, make sure the nut is cut just right for the gauge of string you are using, the slot should be snug enough not allow side-to-side movement in the string.

I've left the string as long as possible to get the departure point as low on the tuner as possible, to no avail

 

[slapless]

Volker - the sandberg style is a pretty crisp solution. Looking more at the bass I think part of the reason why the break angles are so shallow in general is that the headstock might have flexed up a bit over time. Not sure what the history is with respect to strings used on the bass. That sandberg style tree dropping the strings down flat to the headstock closer to the nut would decrease further torque on the headstock, I am thinking.

 

[slapless]

@Double E yes I might need to start over with a new nut as well - just strung with lights and I think something heavier was on there before.

 

[songwriter21]

I had similar issues, plus my D & G would hang on the edge of the button, so I took the button off and replaced it with a Sandberg style retainer. I know you specified no new holes, but this style retainer works very well for me.
View attachment 3678239

What came standard on my Yamaha...goof-proof!

 

[JW56789]

I've never understood why more builders use the 'trapeze' retainer, like on my Squier VM P5; you see these on lots of basses.

 

[202dy]

I've never understood why more builders use the 'trapeze' retainer, like on my Squier VM P5; you see these on lots of basses.

View attachment 3680290

String trees are simple to use. Slack the string, move over the tree. Complete freedom to manipulate.

Bar style string retainers complicate (and frustrate) the process. Threading strings underneath, lack of ability to manipulate from above, chance of scratching finishes.

Not recommended.

 

[slapless]

The more I weigh my options I am thinking this is going to require an extra tree. The fender stealth one I do not think will work with the Schaller tuners that are on it. It's definitely the headstock that rotated forward over the life of the bass and I don't think it would be possible to reverse that. Maybe an extra tree button of the style of the one already there, to keep things consistent. Shame to have to drill into the headstock but I don't think I have other options.

 

[Lownote38]

String trees are simple to use. Slack the string, move over the tree. Complete freedom to manipulate.

Bar style string retainers complicate (and frustrate) the process. Threading strings underneath, lack of ability to manipulate from above, chance of scratching finishes.

Not recommended.

... and they're pretty ugly and somewhat cheap looking.

 

[JW56789]

String trees are simple to use. Slack the string, move over the tree. Complete freedom to manipulate.

Bar style string retainers complicate (and frustrate) the process. Threading strings underneath, lack of ability to manipulate from above, chance of scratching finishes.

Not recommended.

To each his own. But for me, one piece of hardware that will give all the strings the same downforce / angle, is preferable to the assortment of hardware bits that have been used over the years.

As always, your results . . . . will vary.

 

[lowphatbass]

My first bass teacher brought a bass to our lessons every so often that had a piece of leather or leather shoelace wrapped around the A, D and G strings between the nut and tuners. I specifically remember asking him what it was and his explanation turned into a lesson on why it’s important to wind your strings down low on the shaft. I think he was having the same issue and just that bit of tension was keeping his A string from buzzing.
Definitely a “bush” fix but if it works hey.

 

[slapless]

Looks like Hipshot makes a top-loading 3-string tree. Might do this and eliminate the button.

 

[Thegrandwazoo]

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View attachment 3678051

Dammit! I totally remember seeing those now that you've reminded me. Wish I would have before putting another string tree on my defretted Jazz...

 

[Thegrandwazoo]

Looks like Hipshot makes a top-loading 3-string tree. Might do this and eliminate the button. View attachment 3681521

I was going to recommend this part, glad I looked at the whole thread first. However: you mentioned that the nut might be a little sloppy for your string gauge. I'd change the nut before I tried anything else, as whatever else you try might not work anyway if that's the case. Doing it yourself is easy, but unless you have the tools it'll be expensive to get them (although if you can afford it and are interested in working on your own stuff in the future, a set of nut slotting files, feeler gauges, and maybe some GruVbars would be WELL worth it). Any decent tech should do it for a pretty reasonable price, I don't know how much because I do all my own work, but it's really a quick, easy job.

If you choose to replace it yourself, there are plenty of good tutorials on here and youtube about it. If you have it done professionally, it should be right. If the buzz still persists, then it's time to look at different string retainers.

 

[Turnaround]

I generally don't recommend a hold down on the A string of a 4-string bass because it can introduce another problem. If the string angle from nut to tuner is too steep (as may be cause by the addition of a hold down) it will cause the string to set poorly in the nut, just the opposite of what you would expect. Lookee here: (note that all illustrations are a cross section of the nut where the string lies)

With a modest but adequate but adequate break angle over the nut, the witness point of the string is on the speaking side of the string (between nut and bridge). But if you increase the break angle it is more likely to look like this:

Even if you try to set the witness point to the leading edge of the nut, the stiffness of the string is going to prevent it from forming a solid registration at the leading edge - the string cannot change angle sharply at a single point, it forms a tight curve. This can cause buzzes, rattles and intonation problems.

In my experience, any decent brand name bass does not suffer from insufficient downforce at the nut. Pretty well anything from 3 degrees or more will be adequate. But to get a 3 degree angle on some basses requires that some strings (typically the A string on a 4 string bass) need to be wound right to the bottom of the post. If that is done and the witness point is set there is rarely a case where there is a problem with the break angle. However, you may still experience problems with the string buzzing at the nut.

The reason is that the nut slot is not properly cut. remember that the string cannot form a sharp angle becuause of its stiffness. So if the nut slot is cut parallel to the neck you get this (exaggerated):

Note that there is no clearly defined witness point, nor can you set one. There is nothing to keep the string from vibrating throughout the entire thickness of the nut. It will rattle and also cause intonation problems.

So when I encounter A string rattle I first check that the A string is wound to the bottom of the tuner post. Then I check to see that the witness point is set at the leading edge of the nut. If those two things check out I look to see if there is at least a 3 degree angle nut to tuner post. I will also try pressing the A string down between tuner and nut while plucking the A string. And if that's OK I will re-file the nut slot to slope it downward toward the tuner. After all of this, if the open A still buzzes it's time to look elsewhere - fret buzz, bad string, etc. The problem is not the nut or break angle.

 

[202dy]

Agree in total. Not much room to begin with. Shortening the distance between tuner and nut only exacerbates the situation.

Wrap the string to the bottom of the post. Hey, presto! Done.

The OP is seeking a hardware solution. He has been provided with several.