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Double Bass Luthiers: How thick is a back/top blank?

I found this place called 'Grandpa's Workshop' that sells violin instrument tonewoods. They list bass woods, custom cut & priced on request (no prices on site), but as an idea, low grade 'cello backs & tops are $280 & $240.

For back woods they have flamed & quilted maple, for top woods they have Sitka Spruce, Yellow Cedar, Red Cedar, Fir, & Engleman Spruce. Just thought I'd share.
 
Steve Killingsworth said:
During a previous life I spent the better part of 10 years as a forestry consultant. Tulip and Yellow Poplar are the same tree. There is also a White Poplar that is native to much of the country.

I have been curious about the type of poplar used in instrument construction and have thought about posing that question. Yellow poplar does grow fast, straight, and very large. I have seen many trees that could easily make a 1-piece back.

This was covered at some point in an earlier thread, but the European Poplar is different than the American Poplar/Tulip...?
 
I googled "European Poplar" and found this from the Royal Forestry Society of England (there's a good chance they know what they're talking about, I think): Invalid Link Removed

Seems like aspen, black poplar, grey poplar, European poplar, etc. all come from the family Populus and are all quite distinct from the green grassy tulipwood that takes paint so nicely and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
 
nicklloyd said:
This was covered at some point in an earlier thread, but the European Poplar is different than the American Poplar/Tulip...?

The wood used by the early Italian makers was Lombardy poplar. An Italian bass maker told me that it is no longer available(read he wants it for himself?). Lombardy poplar was imported to the US and there should be some available.
A few years ago a city in Michigan was removing all of their
Lombardy Poplar along one of their streets. I called about it, but the city manager told me that it was so full of nails that it probably wouldn't be suitable for instrument making.

My son in law is an arborist and he told me that the tall, straight and very old Tulip tree in my yard is a kind that was used for bass making.
 
Martin Sheridan said:
The wood used by the early Italian makers was Lombardy poplar. An Italian bass maker told me that it is no longer available(read he wants it for himself?). Lombardy poplar was imported to the US and there should be some available.

Hmmm... I was just talking with a contemporary Italian maker last week and he said poplar grows all over the place, and is very easy to get. He probably meant Lombardy poplar; we were looking at a sample, and it wasn't tulipwood. I have a hard time believing that it is no longer available!
 
The "tulip poplar" is the tall "yellow poplar" and is a Magnolia. There are some true American poplars (family populus), the cottonwood is one of them, the aspen another. There are white poplars and black poplars in Europe and Lombardy poplar is a common Italian variety. It was used in violin family instruments in Europe.

The only reason I can see for the American tulip tree being referred to as a "poplar" is that the sawn wood may have had similar working or visual characteristics. Nothing about a tulip tree looks like a true poplar. I have often worked with the wood of the tulip tree and I have a Cherokee flute made of the "lightning struck" colored grain wood that has wonderfully mellow tone. I used some solid planks to build a replacement cabinet for a small Fender combo amp and it is great wood to work with. I suspect that most basses with "poplar" made in the USA are tulip poplar and most made in Europe might be Lombardy. It is also possible that some of the European ones are made of American poplar because these rapid growth trees so common in the eastern forests have probably been exported since colonial days. It would be less probable that American basses would be made of Lombardy Poplar.

I like the logic of the wood choices, in that it is what is locally available and it also works well. I have planted both of those trees in my yard, have seen both of them towering in all the Appalachians that I have hiked through. These are very fast growing species as well and as such should never be in short supply.
 
Another confusion arises because there are sometimes two names for a tree, or a name for the tree and a different name for the wood of the tree. For instance we can see white pines and get white pine wood from the same tree. But we see tulip trees and the wood from them is sold as poplar. If we want to get real American poplar wood, we would need to specify aspen or cottonwood lumber. And the "tulipwood" referred to is is not wood from the tulip tree. Wood from the tulip tree is "yellow poplar".

A luthier friend of mine refers constantly to "southern maple". I keep ribbing him that there is no such species, only red maples, sugar maples, etc. But if you go to buy lumber, there is southern and northern maple.

It can get even more confusing. I have heard and I even provided some links on another thread that indicated most spruce used in Germany from about 1900 forward is actually aged American stock from the US and Canada, and also that the German forests were even reseeded with Douglas firs and American spruces in the 19th century. Of what I could find, old growth European spruce is still available from Scandinavian forests, the Carpathians and the Balkans.
 
I am new to the forum, and now I am living in Hartford, Connecticut, USA. I learned and played violin since I was a kid. I was a carpenter way back 35 years ago in my old country -- north Vietnam. I went to jungle and saw logs into pieces. I build houses and wooden funitures. I built a violin once, and it had a terrible voice, for I built it as a copy of a French copy of Trad, and without any knowledge of violin making: I used green wood, dried in the sun for few days. Other Vietnamese carpenters made string instruments, too. Our experiences show that Vietnamese wood can be used to make the most beautiful musical instruments in the world, but the bigger the instrument the better the chance it has good sound. Almost Violins made of Vietnam wood are not acceptable. Cellos made of Vietnam wood are acceptable, and Basses made of Vietnam wood are acceptable. Guitars made in Vietnam are acceptable, but when they come to the US, their faces and backs are broken into pieces. The Vietnamese carpenters cannot afford for a very good sound Basses imported to compare and contrust against Vietnam Basses. The Vietnamese have no confidence in local wood for Violins, cellos, and basses, that may be at thousands of dollars each. When I read your posts in this forum, that any wood can be used to make basses, I think that I may want to build one with wood imported from Vietnam. I believe that the most beautiful Vietnam wood for a curly-shape bass is only about $500, and a bass made in Vietnam may be at a thousand US dollars.

Up to this point, I think that the back is made of hard and curly wood, the face is made of soft and straight grain wood, the neck is made of hard, and largely curly wood, fingerboard, tail piece, and pin are made of black, hard and fine grain wood. Wood for the Sound post (blocks, frame and linings as well) is the same as the face. Wood for the bridge is the same as the back. All wood should be quarter sawn. The size and the shape are free designed or very flexibly constructed, as long as the bass is like a big violin.

Above is my own idea. Please, give me your oppinions and comments. I need your help before I order some wood from Vietnam, or a finished bass made in Vietnam.
 
You can use wood from anywhere, providing it is slowly and properly seasoned. Most makers, including me, will not use any wood until it is at least 5-6 years old, and has reached a low moisture content. It would also make sense for you to research the actual species you plan to use for seasonal wood movement statistics. Certain woods are a bit unstable for such a large instrument as the bass. I am interested in hearing more about the woods from your home country.
 
arnoldschnitzer said:
You can use wood from anywhere, providing it is slowly and properly seasoned. Most makers, including me, will not use any wood until it is at least 5-6 years old, and has reached a low moisture content.


I took some 100 plus year old maple to John at Old Standward Wood. He had some maple at his place that was dried in a vacuum chamber. His was slightly drier than mine!
 
nicklloyd said:
Hmmm... I was just talking with a contemporary Italian maker last week and he said poplar grows all over the place, and is very easy to get. He probably meant Lombardy poplar; we were looking at a sample, and it wasn't tulipwood. I have a hard time believing that it is no longer available!

That's why I said he probably wanted it for himself.

While we are on wood, where can I get some good willow.
I'd like build a bass with willow back and sides. I wonder where Barrie gets his. I guess I could call him.
 
Martin Sheridan said:
That's why I said he probably wanted it for himself.

While we are on wood, where can I get some good willow.
I'd like build a bass with willow back and sides. I wonder where Barrie gets his. I guess I could call him.
A&M in Canada. Try and Google it if not then call me during busy hours , I have the # in my shop.
 
Wood in Vietnam
Woods are classified according to the beauty, the hardness, the resistance against weather and insects.
From the bottom up, the wood cannot stay against weather or insects (termites, woodworms), and they may not be hard or beautiful at all. They are wood of class 7 or 8. Amongst them are Olive, Fig and Pine. Most of them are white. Others may be in light yellow or pink. Treated wood process may bring them to class 5 or 4.
Wood of class 6 may last for 10 years. Amongst them are Oak, Fig, Winter-Sad. Most of them are pink.
Wood of class 5 and 4 are stronger, and deeper in color. Some of them are called Red-Color. Some Oak woods are in this class. One of the Oak is called all-core Oak, for the wood is hard the same throughout the log. One of the Oak is called non-core Oak, for the wood is as soft the same from outside as the center of the log. It is not hard as most of the Oak, but as soft as the wood of class 6. The good character of this Oak is that the wood is very white in color. One wood that is used for Vietnamese traditional musical instrument is Thanh-Ba (pronounced as thank-bar). Its grain is similar to Spruce, and the color is very light in pink, almost white.
Woods of class 3 are very hard, but the grain is not very beautiful. Sometimes the grain looks like man-made plastic. Some of them are called Steel-Wood. The most famous steel woods are Four-Steel: Dinh (brown), Lim (black), Sen (red), Tau (gray). The Four-Steel woods are used to build temple, cathedral, and bridges. Other steel wood are used to make tool such as plough, loom, or tool handles. They can be used to make bass fingerboard. Ebony is distinct. There is another pure black wood that grows in the south called Say that has small fruits in summer for the kids to enjoy. I do not know the reason this wood is not famous as Ebony. Or maybe it is Ebony itself, I don’t know?
Woods of class 2 are light in color, and light in weight, too. They are not hard, and the grain is not very beautiful, either. Some of them are call yellow-heart or golden-core, for in Vietnamese, the word has the above two meanings. The grain may be like fabric without the season circles. They are used to make caved signs, caved banners, building, boxes, liquid containers or coffins. In old time, the wood was painted in very expensive paint for kings or noble people, mostly in blood-red color or gold color (not yellow but as bright as gold). This paint in nowadays is still very expensive. A picture the size of the legal paper may have the price of few hundreds of dollars. A coffin may cost a fortune: few hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Woods of class 1 are the most beautiful of all. Some of the wood look like maple, and may be maple (not sugar maple), for they are only grow in the north of Vietnam. The trunks may be as big as 3 double-bass placed next to one another. They grew on top of rocky mountain hundreds years ago. I was hired by the mountaineers to sawn the logs the size of the car. I saw some un-rotted fruits of this tree. They are the same size of the ping-pong balls. People carried the planks home on shoulders to make coffins. Four or more people are needed to carry each plank. There was no way to bring the log down through the rocky mountains dozens of meters above the highest pass, few miles away from the nearest road. Some of the woods are only in the class 6 or 7, for they are neither good nor beautiful, and they are grown on good soils for a score or so. Some of class 1 grow in the south only, and the color is deeper or darker, but the grain is equally fine and beautiful. A new wood is grown in the north Vietnam, called Mother-Pearl wood, for its grain looks like the flame on the Pearls.
Woods of the class 1 are good for string instruments in Back, Rib, and Neck. For the back, the wood may be large enough (or lager) for the whole back in a single plank, but the structure of a plank is not as good as half or a portion of the plank, and the flames on a plank are not as beautiful as on 2 opposite planks (actually 2 book-match wedges next to each other from the same log).
I am not sure Fig wood is good for bass face, for it is classified as bad wood. One of the Fig wood is in class 6 even its color is white. It is still not good for musical instrument, for its grain is plain, and not very fine. Pine wood, which is white, and without seeing the grain is classified as low class wood either. Olive that has white wood as White Pine is also classified as bad wood. Oiled Pine wood (yellow) may last as long as the oil is still in it, but White Pine and Olive wood are insect favorite food. I have not seen a Vietnamese Spruce that is big enough for a bass. They may not grow in a hot climate as in Vietnam. To my reference, I would choose American Spruce for the face of the bass.
 
It seems this thread has wandered into a general wood discussion, but just to throw in my 2 cents;


I'm in the process of building a bass ala Peter Chandler, using the Pallota plans that I bought, but, using woods according to an article in International Luthier years ago, called something like "Low Cost Bass".

The back that I'm building is 1/4 in. maple plywood, ribs 1/8 in. maple plywood, and the top, oi, the top is strips of clear pine, cut from a 2x8, cut as if they were cross sections of a carved top, and then hopefully glued together.

I'm only now getting to the point of carving the strips close to the final thickness, and haven't done any gluing of these at all yet, so I can't tell you how this is going to turn out, though I did make contact with someone who built two basses this way some years ago and he's still pleased with them.

The cost for the top, ribs, back; under $100 Cdn.
 
You didn't say how you made the neck/scroll-- did you laminate that from smaller stock?I paid more for my neck billet than you did for your whole kit...

I hope your project turns out well...I kinda wish I could have jumped in at a slightly less stressful depth, but I am where I am, and have to play it the way it lies.

The fellow for whom I am making this bass definitely wanted a carved bass, so I couldn't have taken the options you did. I'd be curious how your bass turns out-- there's no reason it shouldn't turn out well, I expect. I just keep sorting and re-sorting the various options, and woindering if there isn't a better way...cold-bending, or something.
 
I think the face and the back of string instruments work like the paper funnel in a loud speaker. They should vibrate easily in response to the vibration of the strings, the way the paper funnel vibrates according to the force by the changing electronic circles.

That is the reason the wood should be quartersawn, and the wood should be caved (cutting accross the grains), and the edge around the face and the back should be thin. 3 above factors help the centers of the face and the back vibrate freely from the ribs of the instruments, noticing that the face and the back are connected by a sound post that was made of tonal wood.
 
1st Bass said:
You didn't say how you made the neck/scroll-- did you laminate that from smaller stock?I paid more for my neck billet than you did for your whole kit...

I hope your project turns out well...I kinda wish I could have jumped in at a slightly less stressful depth, but I am where I am, and have to play it the way it lies.

The fellow for whom I am making this bass definitely wanted a carved bass, so I couldn't have taken the options you did. I'd be curious how your bass turns out-- there's no reason it shouldn't turn out well, I expect. I just keep sorting and re-sorting the various options, and woindering if there isn't a better way...cold-bending, or something.

The neck I'm planning to laminate; I haven't started on it yet, though I've purchased an ebony fingerboard, as well as all the other parts (machine heads, tailpiece, etc).

I get the feeling that you and I came at the project from similar viewpoints. The reason that I went this direction was to have less stress over errors, misjudgements, etc. The instrument is just for myself. Ideally, if it worked well, and I had the enthusiasm afterwards, I might try to sell this one and build a new one for myself using proper woods, but by then I would have all the experience gained from this first attempt. I think Chandler mentions at one point in his book that one might use lumber yard wood for a first bass. I think he came at it after having made numerous violins and cellos already.

btw, I ran accross a thread on MIMF where a fellow makes bent stave gambas, bending planks much like a boat builder rather than carving from quartersawn. The thread is missing right now because it's being transferred from the active threads to the archives, but I'm waiting for it to show up again because he also shows his upside down shooting board that he uses for non-90 degree jointer planing to joint the bent staves.


Good luck. Maybe we can compare notes as we progress.
 
Sounds good.

I have this thing about half done, I would say. But I have several other things on my plate at the moment and I am feeling quite swamped. (3 school basses awaiting repair; two young fellows learning to build violin/viola; three other instruments of my own in progress; two kids in college, and one going in for a corneal transplant. So, yeah, I'm a little busy.) I may have to drop some things in order to properly prioritize. The only ones I feel that I _can_ drop are my own instruments--everything else is committed, and someone else is depending on my carrying through.

We'll get there, my friend--it just may be a bit of a hairy ride. :-)
 
anhmytran said:
That is the reason the wood should be quartersawn, and the wood should be caved (cutting accross the grains).

So, you are telling us that quartersawn wood sounds better than slabcut wood?

What the heck is "wood should be caved, cutting across the grains?"